If true I LOST any respect for that program. If they have to cheat to win then I wish them no success. That's poor sportsmanship. DAM Coach Day for not jut running the ball and kicking a FG ! Why is simple basic game strategy always avoided in these situations ???
I would say it is not direct cheating since it is within the rules. Was it ethically right and is it the right thing to be teaching the players and students? I would argue no but sports have always been win first, ethics a distant second.
I think back to the scene in "We Are Marshall" when the Marshall coaches pay West Virginia a visit to try and learn the Veer. Seemed like a long shot since at the time they were in state rivals. But Bobby Bowden opened up his film library, told them to help themselves to food next door, and then you saw the patch they had on their helmets I believe. I doubt something like that would happen in today's environment.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
What's funny is that if it was deemed intentional by the refs, which it pretty clearly was if they reviewed the play, it would have been a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty and a dead ball foul, resulting in a fairly easy field goal to win the game after a clock stoppage. Oregon needed a fluky onside kick, a very questionable OPI, a rules loophole and a missed unsportsmanlike conduct penalty to beat OSU at Oregon by 1 point. I'm fairly comfortable they're going to get waxed in a rematch in Indy, and Lanning probably knows it as well.
This is the key distinction and why Lanning needs to be disciplined somehow. It was intentional and unsportsmanlike. It’s one thing if it just happens on accident, but he called a timeout and intentionally took advantage of the situation. Shame on him and their entire program
Putting 12 men on the field is not within the rules. If it was, it wouldn’t be penalized. Intentionally putting 12 men on the field is unsportsmanlike conduct. Should have been a fifteen yard penalty instead of five.
Doesn’t matter now. The play is over, the officiating crew blew the call. There is no recourse.
Also, the fact that the NCAA rules committee is considering an in-season rule change to prevent this from happening again should tell us all we need to know.
Here’s an Idea, instead of being reactive, hire some people to pro actively go through the rules book for exploitation opportunities and fix them in advance.
Looks like the oregon staff hired on some guys to find loophole rules to exploit.
When we have the dream team on paper and the budget to do anything we want... It makes you wonder why OSU didn't have a couple of MIT grads on staff to go through every rule and situation of a game and find ways for us to have every edge on the planet. When players and coaches are all on the same level, preparation is the only thing that gives a team an edge.
That's how winners play. We convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
To add, I keep seeing people bring up whether it's intentional or not, when that also doesn't matter. The rule also states, that if a 12th player leaves the team area does NOT attempt to leave the field, and participates in the play after the ball is snapped then it is a 15-yard illegal participation penalty.
So it's not even up for interpretation, the DB dropped back into coverage when the ball was snapped and participated in the play, which is an automatic 15 yards, so it's not that Lanning "gamed the system" correctly, because that player would've had to run back off the field or be touching out of bounds as the ball was snapped for it to remain a 5 yard, live ball penalty.
These refs are just atrocious and failed to award OSU the correct penalty which would've put them in range to win the game.
Between goals and achievement is discipline and consistency. That fire you have inside to do whatever you love is placed there by God. Now go claim it. ~ Denzel Washington
- Oregon called a timeout with 10 seconds left to put in this 12th man play
- The head coach consciously decided to play 12 on 11, which is illegal, unethical and against every concept of fair play.
- All 12 Oregon players decided to play 12 on 11, which is illegal, unethical and against every concept of fair play
- They purposely ran the 12th man on late and near the sideline to prevent either OSU or the refs from detecting the penalty. Makes the refs look like fools.
The result of this illegal and unethical decision was to disadvantage the team playing by the rules (OSU) in favor of the one who knowingly broke the rule fundamental to football, “your best vs our best”.
This is why a mid-season rule change is being considered. Maybe they should call this the Lanning Rule! On second thought, they should call it the Oregon Rule, since the entire team should be ashamed.
This isn’t gamesmanship. This is cheating.
"You either get better, or worse, you never stay the same." Woody Hayes
kb; I hope you thought that at the end of the GA. game too. And then didn't bitch too much when it didn't work. I think the coaches realized what worked or not in the 2nd half. 11 rushes for 7 yards might suggest you are wrong. Open receivers on the previous two plays, even if the ball was delivered late on one of them. And a blatant opi on the other one.
It’s hard to tell from the broadcast replay, how much did the extra defender impact where Howard went with the ball? It looks like he was going to his left side the whole way, while the extra defender was on the right.
This is the equivalent of TCUN stole signs, but it didn't help that much.
It stinks that your "cheating" (I realize in this case that it is not cheating per se, but it is counter to the spirit of competition) didn't help you, but you still did it.
Not to be a smart a$$ but I think you answered your own question. Howard went away from where the extra guy was and maybe that wasn't supposed to be his first option. Maybe his first was to where the 12th guy was but was taken away.
just a thought.
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
Imagine if Oregon picked it off on that play and ran it back to the house, expiring the rest of the clock.
OSU would have had one untimed down and would've had to throw a Hail Mary. Instead of at least having a chance to get a few quick yards and bring on the kicker.
It has nothing to do with how the play turned out. It was all about the time on the clock being consumed. Give us back those extra 4 seconds then Howard starts his slide at 3-4 seconds left, we get the timeout with a shot at a winning field goal.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
Upsetting that this is going to result in a rule change after it is used on us. Wish I could say shocked. I don't know how 12 men on the field is not called right after the snap and the play blown dead. On replay it looked like Day was screaming at the official before the snap. Either way, probably should not have gotten to that point because I am not sure how we are inside the 30 yard line with 34 seconds, a timeout, and a stopped clock for a first down and we run out of time. Laughable.
They could've just ran the ball once, taken the timeout and kicked the field goal at that point. I don't understand why they kept wanting to pass. The OPI would've never happened.
And if Jeremiah does everything he did except extend his arms, we have the ball on the 19. I am thinking the probability of a 36 yard field goal is appreciably better than a 45 yard try.
Either way, probably should not have gotten to that point because I am not sure how we are inside the 30 yard line with 34 seconds, a timeout, and a stopped clock for a first down and we run out of time.
I thought Ryan Day was freed up from play-calling duties to make sure time management was better, amongst other things.
Special Teams isn't really any better this year.
The Ohio State University - "Haters love us!"
Baskins and Robbins? Nah, Haskins and Dobbins - KannonMic
I don't know how much stock to put in the articles pointing to Larry Johnson being the problem instead of Jim Knowles, but they make a great argument. Obviously, Ryan Day should tell Larry Johnson he needs to cede full control of the defense to Knowles to apply more pressure in these big games. You have to admit that the lack of pressure and sacks from the front four is concerning. All they do is go straight up field. No stunts. Betting that is on LJ and not Knowles.
I'm not finished! Before we let you leave, your commander must cross that field, present himself before this army, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own arse.
As called an "Illegal substitution", I guess it should be a deadball. I thought I had seen an "Illegal participation" penalty before that was 15 yards?
From what I’ve read, post snap is 15 yards and pre snap it’s 5 yards (too many players on the field). With Day pointing it out, it’s odd that the officials didn’t handle it appropriately, especially with the unusual OPI called moments before at that point in the game.
I agree, though I'd add in the minor tweak of giving the other team the option to accept the clock restoration or to decline it and keep the clock rolling, just to prevent some weird situation where it makes sense for a trailing team to intentionally get the penalty in exchange for the clock stoppage.
I think it still has the extra benefit of giving extra 12th man coverage against the QB’s throwing options, as well as making him take longer to decide what to do with the ball.
If they make it a dead ball penalty that stops the clock, that will be a mistake because then it can be abused by the defense in order to preserve time on the clock.
The simple fix is to simply give the offense the option of putting the time back onto the clock along with the 5 yards.
Why are the Buckeyes always on the wrong side of stuff like this when it happens? It's always "oh well, it's too late now, but we'll get it fixed". Mistakes, poor officiating, obscure rules interpretations, kickoffs hit directly at a player and bouncing off, seldom called penalties at absolutely the worst time. It makes me sick. I can't imagine how bad it makes the players feel.
Two things. The program is a big target, as a blue blood with very vocal and passionate fans.
And, we are seeing it from one side. I have my roots but I'm pretty active in a lot of national cfb discussion, and there are many other fan bases that feel the same way. We are just zoomed in on our pov.
I was mad in the moment when this happened. But honestly, good for him. He found a rule, exploited it, and got the benefit from it. He did it within the rules, and if the roles were reversed I would have expected OSU to do the same. I do hope this rule gets changed as it's poorly written and leaves room for this.
Anywhere you go in the world, you can always count on the O-H-I-O
Good. Lets maintain our integrity and do it right . . . and win anyway
If your opponent knocks you on your ass, honor the game and RESPECT him. But Gentlemen, no bastard ever won a football game by getting knocked on his ass. You won it by knocking the other poor dumb bastard on his ass and making HIM respect YOU!!
1. It's not within the rules if you do it intentionally, which is what Lanning did, apparently. 2. There's a difference between getting away with something and doing it legally. 3. If not being willing to lie or cheat is being too vanilla, give me a big scoop.
When Lanning said “There was a timeout before that. We spend an inordinate amount of time on situations. There are some situations that don't show up very often in college football, but this is one that obviously was something that we had worked on. So, you could see the result,” it makes want to know more about the process. What got him started down this path to have this in his tool bag? Just in case. How many other holes in the rules is he ready to exploit?
This involved some careful study and discussion, is this a class assignment for law students or off-season study for the coaches themselves to read the CFB rule book and spot some gray area rules?
I hate the result, but I hate more that they figured out how to implement a penalty situation against their own team that, by the wording of the rule, severely penalized if not outright ruined the opponent's opportunity of winning as was demonstrated, though the opponent was not guilty of any wrongdoing.
If they cheated then they should be forced to vacate the win. I don’t see that happening. I don’t like the result any more than anybody else. It’s a game. He gamed the system? Fine. We’ve all seen far more egregious examples of gaming the system. Had Ryan Day done it, I guarantee we’d be singing his praises. We can’t have it both ways. We’re not tcun.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Intentionally committing a penalty is not cheatj g.
Is a DB who gets beat and then grabs a WR to prevent a TD “cheating?”
Some times you take penalties. The penalty was called here.
This is a lot of excuse making from a fanbase disappointed that we lost the game. The defense gave up 500 yards and we made a number of bad mistakes. This loss is on us, not on an intentional illegal substitution call.
The difference is that, if you intentionally do what Lanning did, it's unsportsmanlike conduct. Unlike your other scenarios, where the intent is clear and this, the appropriate penalty called. What Lanning did is like faking injuries, and other deceitful acts, where the Refs can't tell if it was purposeful.
To be clear, an illegal participation penalty can result in a forfeit. IF officials determine the substitution to be intentional/unsportsmanlike, their options are 15 yard penalty, award the offense a touchdown, or give the offensive team the win. Now, the later situations would almost exclusively be reserved for a case where an offensive guy is running with the ball and a defender jumps off the sideline to tackle him. Just pointing out that the refs could have given a larger penalty than 5 yards if they felt the infraction were intentional. My guess is they never considered it, but replay may have helped with this.
I guess I wouldn't call it "cheating", but certainly unethical.
Igbinosun got beat bad on a route and grabbed their guy in order to save a touchdown. He intentionally took the penalty because it was a better result than giving up points. That's also gaming the system.
It's also why the NFL made it a spot foul instead of consistent yardage. But that benefitted us in this game.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Igbinosun was legally on the field and got a 15 yard penalty. Oregon intentionally put an illegal player on the field and ended up with only a 5 yard penalty. The fact that it was intentional should have brought a 15 yard penalty, but officials chose not to use that enforcement. The NCAA is going to change the rule to take it out of their hands.
But he intentionally committed the penalty, just like Oregon. The NCAA will eventually make pass interference a spot foul like NFL. If they had announced they were changing it after this game, what would you have thought about Igbinosun doing that?
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
One penalty happened during the course of play and the other didn’t. I’m sure coaches tell DBs to grab in a worst case scenario, but it’s still up to the players to make that decision in real-time on a level playing field. Lanning’s move was premeditated and had nothing to do with player-on-player competition. The two aren’t remotely similar. I can’t think of another time in the last 20 years where I’ve seen something like this occur, hence the NCAA is immediately changing the rule. Dishonest competition at its finest.
w; Unless lanning told the official of his intent, it wasn't intentional or a fact that it was intentional at that point in time. Officials have no way of judging intent. That's why they have such a hard time with guys being hurt and causing delays. Sitting injured players out for x number of plays, like when the helmet comes off is the solution for that.
Yes. And they were penalized. The penalty just wasn’t too steep. There’s a lot of money in CFB. Ultimately I blame the stupid fucks that create rules without red teaming how those rules can be exploited. Once you read the rule it’s obvious how it can be exploited.
Oregon blogs are calling Lanning a genius. They are calling Day a goof for his clock management. I think we would be saying the same thing if the roles were reversed.
You know what else isn’t explicitly against the rules: untying your opponent’s shoestrings. We’ve seen that one before too. Neither one is honorable in any way shape or form but I guess since it’s not against the rules then it’s ok.
I think there’s a world of difference between being a 2 year old and untying an opponent’s shoelace and exploiting a loophole in the rule book that helps your team win. It’s not like he sent a 12th guy out there to chop block JJ Smith or something. Honor has nothing to do with Lanning outsmarting our coaches and quite possibly the refs. Hell… he did it all game long.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Once they skirt the rules a little bit, somebody else will take it farther. So yes it could end up being a situation that takes out a player. Give an inch and they’ll take a mile.
And they could end up making college football two hand touch. We can “could happen” all day long. Coming to your assumption is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. But hey, that’s why we’re here… to offer differing opinions… If that’s still allowed.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
There are already rules on the books for unfair plays and tactics. Ultimately this rests on the on field crew for not properly applying the rules. You may want to assign some blame to the Steve Shaw's and Conference officiating heads for not having this as a point of emphasis to the on field officials. The on field officials have plenty of training mostly quizzes and video review of plays.
The only issue that would require a rule change would be adding time back on the clock, to the best of my knowledge there is no circumstance where time is added back to the clock on a live ball foul. There are provisions for un timed downs if a live ball foul occurs at the end of a half.
an unfair act as described in the rulebook
c An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during
the game This includes substitutes, coaches or any other persons subject to
the rules, other than a player or official, interfering in any way with the ball
or a player while the ball is in play (AR 4-2-1-II, 9-2-3-I and 9-2-3-IV)
PENALTY— Unsportsmanlike conduct. The referee may take any action
they consider equitable, which includes directing that the
down be repeated, including assessing a 15-yard penalty,
awarding a score, or suspending or forfeiting the game [S27].
I will argue that playing 11 against 12 by design would fit the definition an obvious unfair act.
also defined in the rule book as an unsportsmanlike act
4 No substitute(s) may enter the field of play or end zones for purposes
other than replacing a player(s) or to fill a player vacancy(ies) This
includes demonstrations after any play (AR 9-2-1-I
There were already 11 players on the field when the substitute entered the field, he was not replacing a player nor filling a vacancy, the substitute was an added player, no vacancy to replace.
if you watch the play a there were 12 on the field, a defensive lineman exits the field and is immediately replaced by another player putting 12 on the field at the snap. Two players not one would have had to leave the filed to make it a legal substitution.
1020, Except if you read further up on a line from the rulebook that Buck61 dropped in the chat, it states:
4 No substitute(s) may enter the field of play or end zones for purposes
other than replacing a player(s) or to fill a player vacancy(ies) This
includes demonstrations after any play (AR 9-2-1-I
don't get the personal foul on their score and they don't even run a squive(sp?) kick from mid field, while flukish, our performance contributed to it.
It’s interesting, but no is talking about the ethics here. Dan Lanning knowingly put out 12 men to play against 11 because he could get away with it. He told his team their best 11 wasn’t good enough against the Buckeyes best 11.
he is being called a genius when in fact he found out a way to cheat and get away with it. He’s a sackless putz who saw that it worked for Harbaugh. Eleven Warriors do your job and write an article on the culture now that Harbaugh created that cheating is good if you can scheme it.
How is it cheating? Is taking a 5 yard delay of game penalty to back up the punter cheating? Is committing a pass interference to prevent a TD cheating? He exploited a loophole and it worked to his advantage. Bum juice.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
It's not "cheating" per se, but it IS unsportsmanlike conduct. So either the NCAA needs to close the loophole like the NFL did or instruct refs to call the unsportsmanlike foul.
What’s unsportsmanlike about it? That he knowingly sent a 12th man onto the field to benefit his team and the clock? What’s the old saying, “Don’t blame the player, blame the game” or something like that? I go back to taking other penalties on purpose to benefit your own team. To call it unsportsmanlike is subjective as hell. You call it unsportsmanlike. I call it genius… and unfortunate. We can agree to disagree and that’s fine! Fix the damn rule, yes. But until it’s fixed, well played Lanning. Tip of the cap.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
I understand what you are saying that he exploited a loophole, but if intentionally breaking a rule isn’t unsportsmanlike, then I’m not really sure what is.
The unfortunate reality is there is not a realistic way to determine intention in the moment unless a ref is standing right there hearing him explain the plan to his players, so I’m not that mad that the refs didn’t call it an unsportsmanlike penalty. Now that he essentially admitted it after the fact, you can’t possibly still say it wasn’t unsportsmanlike. There’s just no way to enforce it now.
Is committing pass interference on purpose to prevent a touchdown unsportsmanlike conduct? That’s intentionally breaking a rule… Where is the line drawn with intentionally breaking rules and calling it unsportsmanlike conduct?
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Except they call it pass interference and not unsportsmanlike conduct. So it’s not unsportsmanlike by definition. Oftentimes it’s a mistaken attempt at hard play. This is too much of a stretch. There’s too much arguing with scarlet colored glasses on this topic and also crying about spilt milk. They won. We lost. Lanning out coached Day. Day was out coached in another big game. That’s it.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
you are being intentionally obtuse in arguing that a player legally on the field causing an intentional penalty to limit the offense is the same as adding extra players on the field to illegally participate to kill the clock. There is a reason the NCAA made a statement about looking at how to penalize the situation until they can officially change the rule.
I respectfully disagree with the notion that I’m being intentionally obtuse. It’s a game. We lost in part to a very sketchy tactic, though I’m sure we can all agree that is far from the only reason we lost. But one that is not expressly prohibited. I agree that this practice shouldn’t occur but it was not illegal when it occurred. Hopefully it’s resolved soon and it won’t happen again.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
You know the difference between PI or holding or offsides and intentionally putting an ineligible,”illegal?” Player on the field to gain an advantage. That’s the line.
I know this has already been stated ad nauseum on this thread… but if the shoe WERE on the other foot… and Day did this exact same thing resulting in a one point win against a top 5 opponent at home or on the road , we’d build Day a damn statue for his stroke of genius outside The Shoe!! Or we’d make the argument that he bent a rule within the parameters of fair play. Or we’d turn a blind eye to the entire incident. And we all know it.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
I think we would be happy that we won and wouldn’t try to give the W back but no I don’t think we’d be building him a statue for beating Oregon. Matter of fact, I think even if OSU kicked a game running FG, we’d still have fans trying to fire him, Knowles and LJ just like now because they had to do some sketchy shit to win instead of just steam rolling them.
Touché. I can live with this take. I suppose he oughta find a way to beat tcun a few times (within the rules, of course) before we start considering who to commission as a sculptor.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
The difference is in the intent, or more specifically, the ability of the officials to determine it. If you intentionally grab the guy to stop a TD, the officials know that. If they could know the coach intentionally put in an extra player, the penalty would be unsportsmanlike conduct. They're having the same type of problem with faking injuries, which this situation is analogous to.
Is defensive holding described as unsportsmanlike in the rule book? I don’t know. I haven’t memorized the rule book. However, I’d argue defensive PI and defensive holding are in essence exactly the same with regards to intent. So defensive holding is then unsportsmanlike per your argument and basically suggests a defender should be disqualified after 2 PI’s or D holding calls. Again, unsportsmanlike conduct is extremely broad, subjective, and totally open to interpretation. Some are way more clear cut than others. I call what Lanning did “gamesmanship,” not unsportsmanlike. Both are subjective. If you want to call what Lanning did unsportsmanlike, great… write the rule or at least enforce it.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Teams can decline that delay of game penalty when the offense does it on purpose but for some reason never do. I asked my buddy who's on a SEC crew that question and he confirmed.
As previously pointed out above. It would have been extremely difficult to prove in real time, but now that Lanning has pretty much confessed to using the tactic he won’t get away with this tactic going forward.
————
an unfair act as described in the rulebook
c An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during
the game This includes substitutes, coaches or any other persons subject to
the rules, other than a player or official, interfering in any way with the ball
or a player while the ball is in play (AR 4-2-1-II, 9-2-3-I and 9-2-3-IV)
PENALTY— Unsportsmanlike conduct. The referee may take any action
they consider equitable, which includes directing that the
down be repeated, including assessing a 15-yard penalty,
awarding a score, or suspending or forfeiting the game [S27].
BTW, It wasn’t genius. Processing information very quickly is an indicator of genius. He said in his press conference that his team spends an inordinate amount of time on situational game planning and that this was a result of that inordinate amount of time. Meaning, he didn’t come up with it on the fly. He has spent time figuring out ways to game the system. So genius no, conniving yes. Take it from someone who has a 145 IQ, what he did was not genius.
Lets take a look at you though. You said,
how is it cheating?
I would venture that you, too, are not a genius, I’ll posit a 96 IQ for you. Because I told you in my post how it was cheating, and yet you failed to comprehend the basic reading of the text, see below.
Dan Lanning knowingly put out 12 men to play against 11 because he could get away with it.
Perhaps you should concentrate on reading comprehension before engaging in name calling, like BumJuice? But then again, that might be asking a lot from a 96.
Is it really cheating? If you believe it is, there are rules on the books that allow the officials to immediately step and penalize it. As fans we should be more concerned about how the officials felt compelled to inject themselves into the game with the unusual OPI call, but failing to call the defense for DPI the play prior when Smith was mugged and it likely resulted in him getting aggressive the next play. Then moments later, they fail to handle the 12 players on the field appropriately even though Day was calling it out pre snap.
apparently there are different rules of thought at play here. If I want to win, I'm leaving no doubt as to how it's done. For others, like Lanning and yourself, not so much.
Not trashing you, just pointing out the differences in what some people are comfortable with and what some, aren't.
They should switch to the NFL replay system midseason too. The current replay system is abysmal. Constant reviews of insignificant plays. It really hurts the pace of the game. Give the coaches a challenge flag and review touchdown's and turnovers.
I'd also like to see them quit stopping the clock on first downs inside of 2 minutes. That gives the offense training wheels inside of 2 minutes and is a massive disadvantage to the defense.
I agree that doing this is just exploiting the rules to your advantage and it rule should be changed BUT... What would have happened if we had thrown a TD pass? Would we or could have just waived off the penalty and scored the TD?
Just keep going. Everybody gets better if they keep at it...
Here’s what we do if we see them again. Put in a walk on goon LB. He targets their QB and puts him out. Our guy is ejected and replaced by our regular LB. It’s all with in the system…..thinking outside the box right there…
your sarcasm font was apparently missed but I was thinking a similar thing where if it's not cheating, why wouldn't a team at some point play dirty, or, dirtier than what lanning just did.
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
Two things… sarcasm wasn’t missed; however, it was used as an argument so I felt obligated to respond with my opinion to the posted sarcastic hypothetical. Secondly, football is over 150 years old. You think players have never been targeted and/or taken out on purpose by opposing teams? C’mon… the rules in football are designed to make the game safer than ever even though we still see unfortunate and gruesome injuries on a regular basis. And unsavory acts on the field by players and coaches will always be an unfortunate part of the game. However, it’s quite a jump going from taking a penalty on purpose to manipulate the clock to taking out an opponent on purpose to create an advantage.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
It's not just the "extra player" that's the issue. It's also a safety issue as you pointed out.
Suppose Will Howard throws his pass to the right on that play, where the extra guy is. Our player gets tackled by one of the "legal 11" players and now the 12th guy comes in and maybe not intentional, causes injury to our player who is now out for the season.
What are you saying now?
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
I can come up with hypotheticals all day long. Football is a dangerous sport where bad injuries occur. You’re utilizing fallacy in your argument by coming up with the randomness of the universe to support your argument having one extra player on the field raises the danger level exponentially. If you want to bring a statistician in to specifically determine what percentage of the time your hypothetical would occur, I’m happy to listen and would be open to changing my opinion if the facts dictated so. Otherwise, I’m going to fall back on the absolute randomness of your scenario. And shit happens. Hell, I spent 6 months on crutches after surgery from a blown out knee taking a hard hit while catching a pass in a pick up game of coed two hand touch in college. If I didn’t want that to be even a minute possibility, I probably shouldn’t have played. Shit happens and football is dangerous.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
So this play from the Ducks, and the last second time out from Kirby Smart that would have given OSU a first down on the fake punt, the 2019 Clemson game scoop and score that didnt count, I can't take it anymore, make the bleeding stop.... lol
It's simple. Do a 10 sec add on plus yardage if the offense is trailing. Offenses get 10 sec run offs in situations when they commit a penalty or have an injury unless they burn a time out I believe. No way Lanning does it if it resulted in that outcome.
I don't care. Just leave no doubt. We have a loaded roster and still got beat. We should have taken care of business in the first 59 minutes and 50 seconds.
Some of the whining on here is unbelievable. If the shoe was on the other foot and Ryan Day did this, everyone would be singing his praises. Give them their props, they found a loophole that was available for EITHER TEAM to utilize and exploited it to their advantage. Tip the cap and move on.
If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a million times: all penalties in the last two minutes of a game should be reviewed. Not only might this one been properly sorted out but also the onside KO offsides penalty against Minnesota vs Michigan, which occurred with 1:37 to play. That’s just one other example. There are likely dozens, possibly hundreds of penalties that might have been overturned if a 2:00 auto review rule was in place.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Depending where they are at on the field, they could have done that several times and waste 20 seconds or more. Bert (at Wisconsin then) expolited a kickoff rule against PSU. There were 24 seconds on the clock and he intentionally had his players line up offsides. He kicked it twice, and the time went fom 24 seconds down to 4. This was a the end of the half if I remember right. He kicked in legally on the 3rd try as the clock ran out on the squib return.
Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect - Woody Hayes
It should never have come down to this anyway. That said it'd be nice if OSU was on the winning end of the these kinds of BS calls too. Won't fault Oregon for doing it though. Unlike stealing signs, this was actually legal to do.
This incident is part of my silver lining to the Oregon game. They had to throw the kitchen sink at us (the onside kick, and this 12th man thing). AND we shot ourselves in the foot a bit - AND our defensive scheme and execution were bad - all to beat us by only a point in their house (and we were in position to have a game winning FG). We'll see them basically in our back yard in December
That's kind of where I am. Yes the Buckeyes could've/should've done things a lot better/different. But Lanning had this 12 man thing and the onside prepped because he knew he would need it...and did. Long way to go.
1) wasting 6 seconds on the offensive PI call would've proved more useful. If Day has truly given play calling to Chip he should've been managing the clock and burned the timeout.
2) agree with the sentiment that Lanning's choice was in poor taste. Respect your opponent enough to play 11v11. He already gotten the "gift" of the OPI but he got greedy. Not the 1st time an in-conference opponent stretched the line of ethics but OSU's strength invites it.
Why stop at 12? Put 13, 15, 20 guys out there. If there is no rule against it, exploit the crap out of it.
Would OSU have the balls to do that in a game, this season, where the outcome (an OSU win is in hand) and you want to see how it is officiated (or just want to send a message)?
I am not sure I would have only put 12 men on the field if I was Oregon. Why not 50 men on the field and have 20 rushers. Try like hell to force a fumble or interception. Run around the field until clock runs out. Only thing would be to not commit personal foul.
Uhh… if the officials didn’t call THIS hypothetical unsportsmanlike conduct… then I accuse the NCAA of LOI and then it really has become collegiate fake wrestling.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
They would have. This hypothetical shows the point many are missing: it is unsportsmanlike conduct to intentionally put in too many players. If it's only 1 extra player, you can't tell if it was accidental or purposeful, though so you can get away with just a 5 yard penalty.
My final point… and then I’ll shut the hell up… We’re in the era of NIL. Savory gamesmanship, coaching practices / strategies, loyalty to a school/team or even fair play, and spirit of amateur competition are over. It’s a new world order in college sports. Better get used to it. This is college football in 2024. I don’t necessarily like it… but it’s how the game is played now.
(and please don’t try to equate this to what those cheating fucks did up north. It’s 2 completely different beasts).
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
You may be right (about where we're at now) but I hope not and disagree that it's the way we should do it (Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds used those arguments). You're wrong that it's completely different from TCUN, though. It's not nearly as egregious but really just a matter of degree.
Hope the Buckeyes are focusing on Nebraska and not these stories. Its over, cant change what happened. Focus on the goals, Buckeyes control their own destiny.
They followed the rules of the game. OSU was outcoached again. Nebraska and IU both have good QBs and Nebraska plays good defense. That is the formula to outcoach Day and Chunk!
All these comments about how a ref screws up the OPI and 12th man call....3 words for yall....House Never Loses. Vegas called, we have "x" amount on the line, so "x" needs to happen. Always follow the money.
I saw lines anywhere from the Buckeyes being favored by 2.5-3.5. A Buckeye field goal wouldn’t have changed much with Oregon winning by 1 or Buckeyes by 2. Either way they wouldn’t have covered. The O/U was around 54 so that was already hit. I’m all for a good Vegas conspiracy, but this game wasn’t a great example unless you had other ideas to explain.
I'll stand firm that Coach Day wouldn't have ever considered such an action at the end of a game. I could be wrong, but I don't see Coach Day as being that kind of coach.
Dan Lanning tells us they practice it. Doing so reeks of desperation and insecurity. He's no genius. He found a loophole and exploited it in the biggest game his program has played since 2015. Look at his demeanor and expressions in that interview. It's like he is telling his Dad that he was the one who broke the window when he was 10, even though Dad beat his little brother for it. I was a big fan of his after learning of his back story last fall. Now, it seems that he's not the person he claims to be.
A defensive back grabbing a receiver who has him beaten is a penalty within gameplay.
Adding an extra player to the field of play after a timeout (and before the snap) is outside of gameplay.
One is not unsportsmanlike, but results in a 15-yard penalty and a first down. The other is very unsportsmanlike, and results in a 5-yard penalty and maybe a first down. The clock runs in both scenarios, so the penalty should be the same.
Lanning doesn't do such a thing if the Bucks would have rec'd 15 yards there. Oregon would have lost that game.
I hope ALL the teams involved in close games this weekend do the same thing Lanning pulled , including OSU if they are in that position.
Oregon to me seems to be a gimmick team . The crazy line of scrimmage sets , the trick plays , the rule book loopholes , even the ugly ass uniforms they switch out all the time. Its like we know we cant beat straight out , we have to do all this other stuff to give us a chance
^ this. Dan Lanning's Ducks are no different than the previous times we played them (2009, 2014). they may be a bit more physical now, but they have always been an overrated gimmick team. Lanning lost to UW twice last year.
OSU should beat them in a rematch. Does anyone really think Oregon would beat a top tier SEC team in the playoffs?
Clearly I’m in the minority opinion here and, though most of you probably won’t believe me, I’m very conservative as it relates to the rules of the game and what is acceptable and what is not. I’m just not seeing the egregiousness of the tactic. I’m just not. There’s way more egregious shit going on in that sport, on TV, behind the scenes, etc. I don’t believe it should have happened but it did. And at the time of the occurrence, it wasn’t forbidden. I do hope something is enacted in the near future to prevent it. Until then, I call it gamesmanship, while a lot of you call it unsportsmanlike conduct. You have your opinion which you’re entitled to and obviously you’ve seen my personal opinion and, to use a current favorite colloquialism of this board…. I’ll die on that hill! :-)
Go Bucks. Beat Bye Week!
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
In fairness, Tressel would have been busted a few times. There were occasions I recall where he arguably used penalties to run down the clock a little towards the end.
I am not addressing whether it is sportsmanlike behavior or whether players or coaches should be manipulating rules like this to their advantage. But gaming the clock has always been part of Sports.
It could be as simple as a defender who is intentionally slow to unpile himself off a downed player so they can't get up quickly as the clock winds down. This happens all the time. Our right tackle did it to a Maryland receiver at the end of the first half at The Shoe last season. He was lying on top of him and had a few 'stumbles' that placed him back on top when he was getting off. Everyone in the stands was laughing because it was obvious it was a pile-on to delay his exit and burn a couple of those remaining few seconds.
The problem with enforcement is it's hard for officials to actually prove intent in the moment. There is no way to do so. Maybe that defender legitimately stumbled and fell back down on top of the receiver holding the ball. As long as he quickly gets back up officials wont call a penalty. But looking for ways to shave a couple of seconds off the clock has always been around and probably always will be.
Whether this is unsportsmanlike behavior or just part of the game is for everyone to debate. But people only make an issue out of it when they are on the receiving end, never when they are the ones delivering it.
Is there a moral difference between a coach using a penalty to shave time or a player being slow to get up off a player in order to burn off a couple of seconds? Time-shaving is time-shaving. Happens all the time.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda ... Day's record vs. Top 5 teams is more concerning to me! Mr. 3rd Base - didn't win with Stroud, Harrison, and on and on and on ...
It's day now, but historically it's os. A guy put up the records the other day of 18 teams that lost one game to the wrong opponent that cost os a natty. That's through generations of coaches. Even Saban failed. It's sport, it's competition, I understand that and accept it accordingly.
I was kind of fine losing because it was a damn good game, but then doing the loophole intentionally because they had 0 faith in their coaches and players tells a lot. The result is the result but if they lose the remainder of their games I wouldn't but too upset
bbb; If you look at their remaining schedule they Shouldn't lose a game, it's really weak. But there's a reason they play the games. Don't know if we'll play them again, but I'd like them undefeated if so.
There is one good thing that may come out of this. With Lanning being so smug about everything, if we do play Oregon again this season, it should be one ticked off and motivated Ohio State team.
I also wonder. I'd the NCAA will be keeping a closer eye on their games since they've come up publicly saying they didn't on purpose. They probably would have been better off playing dumb
I am totally shocked a rule change occurs after OSU gets screwed by a rule.Who could ever foresee OSU getting screwed by a rule and incompetent refs at a critical moment?
I am sorry to those that posted "conspiracy theory" threads or comments that insisted Lanning did this on purpose. I didn't make any negative comments here, but IRL I rolled my eyes and thought that you needed to get over the loss and stop looking for excuses. You were right on this. My bad. We still need to get over the loss and move on, but yes, they did indeed game the system on purpose.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
I have no problems accepting when we lose fair and square, but I hate that this happened. I watch football to see the best talent win with the ball, not to see who can exploit loopholes.
Time-shaving happens everywhere using all kinds of questionable methods. Teams are going to get away with what they can when it comes to gaming the clock. Only way to change this is to change rules on game clock management at the end of a half. The method someone uses to shave time off the clock when the opposition has the ball varies but it happens everywhere. Some are common methods and some are rare.
At the Maryland game last year I recall the Terrapins were close to scoring at the end of the half. There were twenty-seconds left. Time was running down and fans were laughing and screaming, "Hold him down" as a couple players were obviously trying to delay the receiver from getting back to the line in time. It worked and the clock ran out.
Not defending any specific decision. Just putting this in perspective. Time-shaving is time-shaving and finding questionable and creative ways to run down the clock is a staple of Sports and probably always will be. As mentioned before, people only notice it or make a deal of it when they are on the receiving end.
That's another good example. I get the practice of it, but I still hate it. It's why I don't follow UFC because there are some fighters who are notorious for having boring fights but still win. This is not the only reason why we lost though, so I'm not full-blown upset.
The thing is, it's hard to prove. It has to be blatant without any room for doubt--i.e.the defender laying on top of the receiver and not letting him up. Maybe the defender did trip on top of him two times when getting up. But common sense says otherwise.
I do recall this because everyone on the Md sidelines was jumping up and down going off on the refs trying to argue that progress was impeded and the defender was intentionally pushing him down. Coach complained about the play after the game and said the refs blew it by not calling interference and resetting the clock. But the fans were screaming "Yeah ! Hold Him Down." so obviously they thought that's the aim. Same of these fans might now be complaining about Lanning being unsportsmanlike by using a penalty to shave three seconds off the clock.
I am not bashing the Bucks with this example. Just saying you won't find a team that isn't sometimes looking to get away with what they can. Time shaving is the oldest trick in the book and everyone finds ways to do it at times.
Within 3 plays the refs inserted themselves into the outcome of the game. Regardless of Lanning cheating the refs should have called it as it should have been called. The 12th man made no effort to get off the field and participated in the play actively. That’s 15 yards and an easy field goal.
So my question is this, everyone thinks what Stalions did was cheating but maybe he just found a loophole in the system when he was not going to games himself, does it really matter what the loophole is. If you have to loophole your way through anything in life than you will not be successful. I pray to god we get another shot at this prick cause I want to roll them into the ground and then run the score up on their asses.
I’m sorry, but I didn’t have time to read everything today so don’t know if this type of comment has been posted already. I made a comment during the game thread in the PL after the onside kick that Oregon always pulls this stunt shit and this is how they do things. We should’ve expected this nonsense. I really have a lack of respect for teams that have to use trickery so often to win. But, it really should never have come down to this anyway. We executed poorly, they played physically, and it should never come down to one play when you have the team that we fielded.
I haven't read all of the above comments because frankly, I just want to vent. I expect that OSU gets the very best that everyone "we" play can throw at "us." That's fair and it comes with the position that OSU holds. It is actually a form of respect and I am good with that. I also expect that every coach we play who can will look for a way to try to exploit a rule or cross some line to gain an advantage. I am less okay with that, but we are a long ways from the culture that Clair Bee wrote about in the 1940's and 1950's in sportsmanship in football. The past three years should have made that point loud and clear for anyone in the WAC.
WHAT I AM NOT OKAY WITH IS A COACHING STAFF that does not anticipate this sh*t. What are we doing with our interns? Why in the world is some group of them not cataloguing every play or attempted play like this one that happens across the college (and high school) football landscape and communicating this to the coaching staff. IT IS INEXCUSABLE to have a "$20 MILLION TEAM" run by a coaching staff who does not apparently expect these kinds of things to occur. We were obviously unprepared to respond to that intended penalty and we certainly were unprepared to field a hard on sides kick. This is ridiculous. You have 365 days to think about these things and to organize how to deal with them. You do not have to do them yourself, but you DAMN WELL BETTER be prepared to react correctly when they are done to you. Can you catch everything. No. But OSU is consistently the victim of a competing coaching staff who out thinks and out prepares us. There should not be an unexpected event... We need to play 3 dimensional chess and throw the damn checker board out the f*cking window. Stop acting as if you are just glad to be at the party and impose your will on them. End of rant. My apologies for likely repeating what others have said in a more eloquent manner.
You know how people here will sometimes post the comical reactions from MGoBlog after an awful game or.recruiting setback for TTUN? Well, that's other fanbases reacting to these comments.
Another team found a way within the rules to get the better of us. Crying about it is absolutely pathetic.
How many times do we need to see that Ryan Day is not the sharpest tack in the box when it comes to clock management? Lanning schooled him. And we should have called TO after Smith’s O-Interference penalty. Let 10-15 seconds lapse. Ended the game with 1 TO in our pocket.
I hopped on here thinking fans would be upset about the exploitation of the loophole in the rule, but also respect the smarts of Lanning to use the loophole to Oregon’s advantage. I was wrong. Our shit fanbase is again playing the victim card and whining that we were “cheated” by a perfectly legit move by Lanning. You wanna know why people despise Ohio State fans? It’s shit like this.
"In America, anyone can become president. That's the problem." George Carlin
Yeah, the bitch of some people still thinking sportsmanship and ethics matter.
Blasting the kickoff at a cover guy when you are kicking from the 50, smart play. putting extra men on the field intentionally to kill clock, unethical (and stupid since by rule it could have garnered a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty).
Give me a fucking break. If Day had done the same thing you and the rest of the clowns on here would have been singing his praises. There is nothing unethical or unsportsmanlike about exploiting a loophole in the rules.
"In America, anyone can become president. That's the problem." George Carlin
I did not realize this was intentional until after the game was over. What Lanning did reminds me of what Vrabel did to Belichick in the playoffs a few years back. I would not call it cheating, just finding a loophole in the rule. The clock should be put back to ten seconds and the yardage should be more, at least 10-15 yards. If you can't figure out how to get 11 men on the field, then that should be stiffer than a five yard penalty.
This is what I am referring to, kind of made me laugh that Belichick got outsmarted by his protege.
The cowardice of intentionally having an extra player on the field isn't far away from what michigan did. Karma will find Oregon for that at some point this season.
Seems like cheating pays off now and as much money is at stake why wouldn't you? The governing body is ineffective so the reward far outweighs the risk. Power 4 needs to break off and form their own league.
Comments Show All Comments
Can we also get full time Refs?
You don’t like the part time guys that Phil Knight employs?
Ronny P Buckeye
At this point, the B1G refs have been so trash this season for everyone, just give me AI refs lol
If true I LOST any respect for that program. If they have to cheat to win then I wish them no success. That's poor sportsmanship. DAM Coach Day for not jut running the ball and kicking a FG ! Why is simple basic game strategy always avoided in these situations ???
I would say it is not direct cheating since it is within the rules. Was it ethically right and is it the right thing to be teaching the players and students? I would argue no but sports have always been win first, ethics a distant second.
I think back to the scene in "We Are Marshall" when the Marshall coaches pay West Virginia a visit to try and learn the Veer. Seemed like a long shot since at the time they were in state rivals. But Bobby Bowden opened up his film library, told them to help themselves to food next door, and then you saw the patch they had on their helmets I believe. I doubt something like that would happen in today's environment.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
What's funny is that if it was deemed intentional by the refs, which it pretty clearly was if they reviewed the play, it would have been a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty and a dead ball foul, resulting in a fairly easy field goal to win the game after a clock stoppage. Oregon needed a fluky onside kick, a very questionable OPI, a rules loophole and a missed unsportsmanlike conduct penalty to beat OSU at Oregon by 1 point. I'm fairly comfortable they're going to get waxed in a rematch in Indy, and Lanning probably knows it as well.
Lanning is a gambler and even bad gamblers get lucky sometimes. Figures he did so twice (on-side kick and 12 men) against the good guys.
Next time the Ducks are in Columbus the Buckeyes should have a waitress on the sidelines to bring him a bourbon every now and then.
This is the key distinction and why Lanning needs to be disciplined somehow. It was intentional and unsportsmanlike. It’s one thing if it just happens on accident, but he called a timeout and intentionally took advantage of the situation. Shame on him and their entire program
Round on the ends and "HI" in the middle. O-HI-O.
And they want to be known as "that team out West"......
I read blitz
Putting 12 men on the field is not within the rules. If it was, it wouldn’t be penalized. Intentionally putting 12 men on the field is unsportsmanlike conduct. Should have been a fifteen yard penalty instead of five.
Doesn’t matter now. The play is over, the officiating crew blew the call. There is no recourse.
Also, the fact that the NCAA rules committee is considering an in-season rule change to prevent this from happening again should tell us all we need to know.
Here’s an Idea, instead of being reactive, hire some people to pro actively go through the rules book for exploitation opportunities and fix them in advance.
One Shoe
Looks like the oregon staff hired on some guys to find loophole rules to exploit.
When we have the dream team on paper and the budget to do anything we want... It makes you wonder why OSU didn't have a couple of MIT grads on staff to go through every rule and situation of a game and find ways for us to have every edge on the planet. When players and coaches are all on the same level, preparation is the only thing that gives a team an edge.
That's how winners play. We convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
To add, I keep seeing people bring up whether it's intentional or not, when that also doesn't matter. The rule also states, that if a 12th player leaves the team area does NOT attempt to leave the field, and participates in the play after the ball is snapped then it is a 15-yard illegal participation penalty.
So it's not even up for interpretation, the DB dropped back into coverage when the ball was snapped and participated in the play, which is an automatic 15 yards, so it's not that Lanning "gamed the system" correctly, because that player would've had to run back off the field or be touching out of bounds as the ball was snapped for it to remain a 5 yard, live ball penalty.
These refs are just atrocious and failed to award OSU the correct penalty which would've put them in range to win the game.
Between goals and achievement is discipline and consistency. That fire you have inside to do whatever you love is placed there by God. Now go claim it. ~ Denzel Washington
Is it cheating? Let’s see:
- Oregon called a timeout with 10 seconds left to put in this 12th man play
- The head coach consciously decided to play 12 on 11, which is illegal, unethical and against every concept of fair play.
- All 12 Oregon players decided to play 12 on 11, which is illegal, unethical and against every concept of fair play
- They purposely ran the 12th man on late and near the sideline to prevent either OSU or the refs from detecting the penalty. Makes the refs look like fools.
The result of this illegal and unethical decision was to disadvantage the team playing by the rules (OSU) in favor of the one who knowingly broke the rule fundamental to football, “your best vs our best”.
This is why a mid-season rule change is being considered. Maybe they should call this the Lanning Rule! On second thought, they should call it the Oregon Rule, since the entire team should be ashamed.
This isn’t gamesmanship. This is cheating.
"You either get better, or worse, you never stay the same." Woody Hayes
kb; I hope you thought that at the end of the GA. game too. And then didn't bitch too much when it didn't work. I think the coaches realized what worked or not in the 2nd half. 11 rushes for 7 yards might suggest you are wrong. Open receivers on the previous two plays, even if the ball was delivered late on one of them. And a blatant opi on the other one.
Or according to ESPN 10 attempts for 26 yards slightly skewed by muffed snap.
It’s hard to tell from the broadcast replay, how much did the extra defender impact where Howard went with the ball? It looks like he was going to his left side the whole way, while the extra defender was on the right.
This is the equivalent of TCUN stole signs, but it didn't help that much.
It stinks that your "cheating" (I realize in this case that it is not cheating per se, but it is counter to the spirit of competition) didn't help you, but you still did it.
This is the equivalent of the sign stealing operation not helping out on one specific play lol
Class of 2010.
Not to be a smart a$$ but I think you answered your own question. Howard went away from where the extra guy was and maybe that wasn't supposed to be his first option. Maybe his first was to where the 12th guy was but was taken away.
just a thought.
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
Imagine if Oregon picked it off on that play and ran it back to the house, expiring the rest of the clock.
OSU would have had one untimed down and would've had to throw a Hail Mary. Instead of at least having a chance to get a few quick yards and bring on the kicker.
Class of 2010.
Damn. Good. Point.
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
Meh, with those options why not go for the 55 y FG? It's more likely if the kick gets off w/o a snafu. But day doesn't have the best luck.
Point well taken and if valid, needs to be highlighted. Write it in to the muckety mucks at headquarters!
It has nothing to do with how the play turned out. It was all about the time on the clock being consumed. Give us back those extra 4 seconds then Howard starts his slide at 3-4 seconds left, we get the timeout with a shot at a winning field goal.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
Upsetting that this is going to result in a rule change after it is used on us. Wish I could say shocked. I don't know how 12 men on the field is not called right after the snap and the play blown dead. On replay it looked like Day was screaming at the official before the snap. Either way, probably should not have gotten to that point because I am not sure how we are inside the 30 yard line with 34 seconds, a timeout, and a stopped clock for a first down and we run out of time. Laughable.
Also Jim Knowles sucks.
They could've just ran the ball once, taken the timeout and kicked the field goal at that point. I don't understand why they kept wanting to pass. The OPI would've never happened.
And if Jeremiah does everything he did except extend his arms, we have the ball on the 19. I am thinking the probability of a 36 yard field goal is appreciably better than a 45 yard try.
VA_Buck
he didn't extend, go watch the play, that was a BS OPI call and they had been battling all game like that.....it was a joke that call was made.
"I don't want to be around average, why be around average!" -UFM
I thought Ryan Day was freed up from play-calling duties to make sure time management was better, amongst other things.
Special Teams isn't really any better this year.
The Ohio State University - "Haters love us!"
Baskins and Robbins? Nah, Haskins and Dobbins - KannonMic
I don't know how much stock to put in the articles pointing to Larry Johnson being the problem instead of Jim Knowles, but they make a great argument. Obviously, Ryan Day should tell Larry Johnson he needs to cede full control of the defense to Knowles to apply more pressure in these big games. You have to admit that the lack of pressure and sacks from the front four is concerning. All they do is go straight up field. No stunts. Betting that is on LJ and not Knowles.
I'm not finished! Before we let you leave, your commander must cross that field, present himself before this army, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own arse.
That's a good rendition of an old saying.
Born and bred a Buckeye - Buckeye 'til I die
I think we are all a little angry over this 12th man deal but OSU has to focus on the next game and get back on track. Go Bucks!!!
Raider85
Pretty easy rule change - 12 men anytime under 2 minutes of half unless they are running off field at snap is 15 yards if running off field is 5
“And in the night of death, hope sees a star and listening love hears the rustle of a wing.”
It should also be a dead ball foul that immediately kills the clock or restores the time to the pre-snap time.
GeorgiaBuckeye
It also needs to be reviewable.
As called an "Illegal substitution", I guess it should be a deadball. I thought I had seen an "Illegal participation" penalty before that was 15 yards?
From what I’ve read, post snap is 15 yards and pre snap it’s 5 yards (too many players on the field). With Day pointing it out, it’s odd that the officials didn’t handle it appropriately, especially with the unusual OPI called moments before at that point in the game.
GeorgiaBuckeye
I agree, though I'd add in the minor tweak of giving the other team the option to accept the clock restoration or to decline it and keep the clock rolling, just to prevent some weird situation where it makes sense for a trailing team to intentionally get the penalty in exchange for the clock stoppage.
Makes perfect sense! There should be no loophole for the penalized team that allows them to benefit from committing the penalty.
GeorgiaBuckeye
THIS is the issue that needs be fixed. The extra man wasn' t put in to play defense, he was put in to keep the clock running.
t s blue
I think it still has the extra benefit of giving extra 12th man coverage against the QB’s throwing options, as well as making him take longer to decide what to do with the ball.
BuckNekked
But, if the loophole of the clock is removed, coaches would be hesitant to use a 12th man risking 15 yards closer to the FG and killing the clock.
GeorgiaBuckeye
Should have been an unsportsmanlike conduct for trying to pull a fast one
If they make it a dead ball penalty that stops the clock, that will be a mistake because then it can be abused by the defense in order to preserve time on the clock.
The simple fix is to simply give the offense the option of putting the time back onto the clock along with the 5 yards.
Why are the Buckeyes always on the wrong side of stuff like this when it happens? It's always "oh well, it's too late now, but we'll get it fixed". Mistakes, poor officiating, obscure rules interpretations, kickoffs hit directly at a player and bouncing off, seldom called penalties at absolutely the worst time. It makes me sick. I can't imagine how bad it makes the players feel.
ernie
Two things. The program is a big target, as a blue blood with very vocal and passionate fans.
And, we are seeing it from one side. I have my roots but I'm pretty active in a lot of national cfb discussion, and there are many other fan bases that feel the same way. We are just zoomed in on our pov.
How long has that van been there?
Because we don’t cheat.
Round on the ends and "HI" in the middle. O-HI-O.
This.
"Make Helen Well"
I was mad in the moment when this happened. But honestly, good for him. He found a rule, exploited it, and got the benefit from it. He did it within the rules, and if the roles were reversed I would have expected OSU to do the same. I do hope this rule gets changed as it's poorly written and leaves room for this.
Anywhere you go in the world, you can always count on the O-H-I-O
This ^^. Except Ohio State would never do this. Not under Ryan Day. He’s too vanilla to think outside the box but within the rules.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
Good. Lets maintain our integrity and do it right . . . and win anyway
If your opponent knocks you on your ass, honor the game and RESPECT him. But Gentlemen, no bastard ever won a football game by getting knocked on his ass. You won it by knocking the other poor dumb bastard on his ass and making HIM respect YOU!!
1. It's not within the rules if you do it intentionally, which is what Lanning did, apparently. 2. There's a difference between getting away with something and doing it legally. 3. If not being willing to lie or cheat is being too vanilla, give me a big scoop.
"Make Helen Well"
When Lanning said “There was a timeout before that. We spend an inordinate amount of time on situations. There are some situations that don't show up very often in college football, but this is one that obviously was something that we had worked on. So, you could see the result,” it makes want to know more about the process. What got him started down this path to have this in his tool bag? Just in case. How many other holes in the rules is he ready to exploit?
This involved some careful study and discussion, is this a class assignment for law students or off-season study for the coaches themselves to read the CFB rule book and spot some gray area rules?
I hate the result, but I hate more that they figured out how to implement a penalty situation against their own team that, by the wording of the rule, severely penalized if not outright ruined the opponent's opportunity of winning as was demonstrated, though the opponent was not guilty of any wrongdoing.
Meh. "Gaming the system" is cheating.
If they cheated then they should be forced to vacate the win. I don’t see that happening. I don’t like the result any more than anybody else. It’s a game. He gamed the system? Fine. We’ve all seen far more egregious examples of gaming the system. Had Ryan Day done it, I guarantee we’d be singing his praises. We can’t have it both ways. We’re not tcun.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
Intentionally committing a penalty is not cheatj g.
Is a DB who gets beat and then grabs a WR to prevent a TD “cheating?”
Some times you take penalties. The penalty was called here.
This is a lot of excuse making from a fanbase disappointed that we lost the game. The defense gave up 500 yards and we made a number of bad mistakes. This loss is on us, not on an intentional illegal substitution call.
The difference is that, if you intentionally do what Lanning did, it's unsportsmanlike conduct. Unlike your other scenarios, where the intent is clear and this, the appropriate penalty called. What Lanning did is like faking injuries, and other deceitful acts, where the Refs can't tell if it was purposeful.
"Make Helen Well"
To be clear, an illegal participation penalty can result in a forfeit. IF officials determine the substitution to be intentional/unsportsmanlike, their options are 15 yard penalty, award the offense a touchdown, or give the offensive team the win. Now, the later situations would almost exclusively be reserved for a case where an offensive guy is running with the ball and a defender jumps off the sideline to tackle him. Just pointing out that the refs could have given a larger penalty than 5 yards if they felt the infraction were intentional. My guess is they never considered it, but replay may have helped with this.
I guess I wouldn't call it "cheating", but certainly unethical.
Igbinosun got beat bad on a route and grabbed their guy in order to save a touchdown. He intentionally took the penalty because it was a better result than giving up points. That's also gaming the system.
It's also why the NFL made it a spot foul instead of consistent yardage. But that benefitted us in this game.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Igbinosun was legally on the field and got a 15 yard penalty. Oregon intentionally put an illegal player on the field and ended up with only a 5 yard penalty. The fact that it was intentional should have brought a 15 yard penalty, but officials chose not to use that enforcement. The NCAA is going to change the rule to take it out of their hands.
But he intentionally committed the penalty, just like Oregon. The NCAA will eventually make pass interference a spot foul like NFL. If they had announced they were changing it after this game, what would you have thought about Igbinosun doing that?
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
One penalty happened during the course of play and the other didn’t. I’m sure coaches tell DBs to grab in a worst case scenario, but it’s still up to the players to make that decision in real-time on a level playing field. Lanning’s move was premeditated and had nothing to do with player-on-player competition. The two aren’t remotely similar. I can’t think of another time in the last 20 years where I’ve seen something like this occur, hence the NCAA is immediately changing the rule. Dishonest competition at its finest.
w; Unless lanning told the official of his intent, it wasn't intentional or a fact that it was intentional at that point in time. Officials have no way of judging intent. That's why they have such a hard time with guys being hurt and causing delays. Sitting injured players out for x number of plays, like when the helmet comes off is the solution for that.
Yes. And they were penalized. The penalty just wasn’t too steep. There’s a lot of money in CFB. Ultimately I blame the stupid fucks that create rules without red teaming how those rules can be exploited. Once you read the rule it’s obvious how it can be exploited.
ROLL BUCKEYES!
Oregon blogs are calling Lanning a genius. They are calling Day a goof for his clock management. I think we would be saying the same thing if the roles were reversed.
Robert M
You know what else isn’t explicitly against the rules: untying your opponent’s shoestrings. We’ve seen that one before too. Neither one is honorable in any way shape or form but I guess since it’s not against the rules then it’s ok.
I think there’s a world of difference between being a 2 year old and untying an opponent’s shoelace and exploiting a loophole in the rule book that helps your team win. It’s not like he sent a 12th guy out there to chop block JJ Smith or something. Honor has nothing to do with Lanning outsmarting our coaches and quite possibly the refs. Hell… he did it all game long.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
Once they skirt the rules a little bit, somebody else will take it farther. So yes it could end up being a situation that takes out a player. Give an inch and they’ll take a mile.
And they could end up making college football two hand touch. We can “could happen” all day long. Coming to your assumption is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. But hey, that’s why we’re here… to offer differing opinions… If that’s still allowed.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
You know you’re in for an ass whipping when your defense’s last ditch effort is to untie shoe strings. That was a great day.
ROLL BUCKEYES!
There are already rules on the books for unfair plays and tactics. Ultimately this rests on the on field crew for not properly applying the rules. You may want to assign some blame to the Steve Shaw's and Conference officiating heads for not having this as a point of emphasis to the on field officials. The on field officials have plenty of training mostly quizzes and video review of plays.
The only issue that would require a rule change would be adding time back on the clock, to the best of my knowledge there is no circumstance where time is added back to the clock on a live ball foul. There are provisions for un timed downs if a live ball foul occurs at the end of a half.
an unfair act as described in the rulebook
c An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during
the game This includes substitutes, coaches or any other persons subject to
the rules, other than a player or official, interfering in any way with the ball
or a player while the ball is in play (AR 4-2-1-II, 9-2-3-I and 9-2-3-IV)
PENALTY— Unsportsmanlike conduct. The referee may take any action
they consider equitable, which includes directing that the
down be repeated, including assessing a 15-yard penalty,
awarding a score, or suspending or forfeiting the game [S27].
I will argue that playing 11 against 12 by design would fit the definition an obvious unfair act.
also defined in the rule book as an unsportsmanlike act
4 No substitute(s) may enter the field of play or end zones for purposes
other than replacing a player(s) or to fill a player vacancy(ies) This
includes demonstrations after any play (AR 9-2-1-I
There were already 11 players on the field when the substitute entered the field, he was not replacing a player nor filling a vacancy, the substitute was an added player, no vacancy to replace.
if you watch the play a there were 12 on the field, a defensive lineman exits the field and is immediately replaced by another player putting 12 on the field at the snap. Two players not one would have had to leave the filed to make it a legal substitution.
Sick and tired of how pricks like harbaugh and now this prick lanning use bs tactics to win a game.
and this is why I 100% support Ryan Day. He’s not a pile like lanning and jh.
genius my a$$.
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
Right. Pretty telling that other teams feel the need to resort to such tactics against us. Clearly they see OSU as a threat.
"In weightlifting, I don't think sudden, uncontrolled urination should automatically disqualify you."
-Jack Handey
HUGE difference between cheating and using the rules to your advantage. Lanning does not deserve to be lumped in with that piece of shit.
The pain of discipline or the pain of regret, take your pick
Fine. We'll keep the piles, separate.
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
Hard to tell a shit from a turd.
BobnTX
1020, Except if you read further up on a line from the rulebook that Buck61 dropped in the chat, it states:
4 No substitute(s) may enter the field of play or end zones for purposes
other than replacing a player(s) or to fill a player vacancy(ies) This
includes demonstrations after any play (AR 9-2-1-I
Two plays that won't happen in future games:
(1) Quinshon is surprised when the defender tries to tackle the ball instead of him
(2) Onside kick drilled at receiving team
Coach Ryan Day is an excellent coach. Teams are pushing the boundaries on the rules to beat him. Coach Day has my full confidence.
don't get the personal foul on their score and they don't even run a squive(sp?) kick from mid field, while flukish, our performance contributed to it.
So it’s not our imagination or excuse making? Good to know.
It’s interesting, but no is talking about the ethics here. Dan Lanning knowingly put out 12 men to play against 11 because he could get away with it. He told his team their best 11 wasn’t good enough against the Buckeyes best 11.
he is being called a genius when in fact he found out a way to cheat and get away with it. He’s a sackless putz who saw that it worked for Harbaugh. Eleven Warriors do your job and write an article on the culture now that Harbaugh created that cheating is good if you can scheme it.
How is it cheating? Is taking a 5 yard delay of game penalty to back up the punter cheating? Is committing a pass interference to prevent a TD cheating? He exploited a loophole and it worked to his advantage. Bum juice.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
It's not "cheating" per se, but it IS unsportsmanlike conduct. So either the NCAA needs to close the loophole like the NFL did or instruct refs to call the unsportsmanlike foul.
What’s unsportsmanlike about it? That he knowingly sent a 12th man onto the field to benefit his team and the clock? What’s the old saying, “Don’t blame the player, blame the game” or something like that? I go back to taking other penalties on purpose to benefit your own team. To call it unsportsmanlike is subjective as hell. You call it unsportsmanlike. I call it genius… and unfortunate. We can agree to disagree and that’s fine! Fix the damn rule, yes. But until it’s fixed, well played Lanning. Tip of the cap.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
I understand what you are saying that he exploited a loophole, but if intentionally breaking a rule isn’t unsportsmanlike, then I’m not really sure what is.
The unfortunate reality is there is not a realistic way to determine intention in the moment unless a ref is standing right there hearing him explain the plan to his players, so I’m not that mad that the refs didn’t call it an unsportsmanlike penalty. Now that he essentially admitted it after the fact, you can’t possibly still say it wasn’t unsportsmanlike. There’s just no way to enforce it now.
Is committing pass interference on purpose to prevent a touchdown unsportsmanlike conduct? That’s intentionally breaking a rule… Where is the line drawn with intentionally breaking rules and calling it unsportsmanlike conduct?
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
PI is a 15 yard penalty in college, so yes, its an equivalent penalty to unsportsmanlike conduct.
Except they call it pass interference and not unsportsmanlike conduct. So it’s not unsportsmanlike by definition. Oftentimes it’s a mistaken attempt at hard play. This is too much of a stretch. There’s too much arguing with scarlet colored glasses on this topic and also crying about spilt milk. They won. We lost. Lanning out coached Day. Day was out coached in another big game. That’s it.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
you are being intentionally obtuse in arguing that a player legally on the field causing an intentional penalty to limit the offense is the same as adding extra players on the field to illegally participate to kill the clock. There is a reason the NCAA made a statement about looking at how to penalize the situation until they can officially change the rule.
I respectfully disagree with the notion that I’m being intentionally obtuse. It’s a game. We lost in part to a very sketchy tactic, though I’m sure we can all agree that is far from the only reason we lost. But one that is not expressly prohibited. I agree that this practice shouldn’t occur but it was not illegal when it occurred. Hopefully it’s resolved soon and it won’t happen again.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
Being mistaken for being “intentionally obtuse” is better than the alternate supposition.
The Velvet Frog
You know the difference between PI or holding or offsides and intentionally putting an ineligible,”illegal?” Player on the field to gain an advantage. That’s the line.
I know this has already been stated ad nauseum on this thread… but if the shoe WERE on the other foot… and Day did this exact same thing resulting in a one point win against a top 5 opponent at home or on the road , we’d build Day a damn statue for his stroke of genius outside The Shoe!! Or we’d make the argument that he bent a rule within the parameters of fair play. Or we’d turn a blind eye to the entire incident. And we all know it.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
I think we would be happy that we won and wouldn’t try to give the W back but no I don’t think we’d be building him a statue for beating Oregon. Matter of fact, I think even if OSU kicked a game running FG, we’d still have fans trying to fire him, Knowles and LJ just like now because they had to do some sketchy shit to win instead of just steam rolling them.
Touché. I can live with this take. I suppose he oughta find a way to beat tcun a few times (within the rules, of course) before we start considering who to commission as a sculptor.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
The difference is in the intent, or more specifically, the ability of the officials to determine it. If you intentionally grab the guy to stop a TD, the officials know that. If they could know the coach intentionally put in an extra player, the penalty would be unsportsmanlike conduct. They're having the same type of problem with faking injuries, which this situation is analogous to.
"Make Helen Well"
The rule book describes the action as "unsportsmanlike".
That is what is unsportsmanlike about it.
Is defensive holding described as unsportsmanlike in the rule book? I don’t know. I haven’t memorized the rule book. However, I’d argue defensive PI and defensive holding are in essence exactly the same with regards to intent. So defensive holding is then unsportsmanlike per your argument and basically suggests a defender should be disqualified after 2 PI’s or D holding calls. Again, unsportsmanlike conduct is extremely broad, subjective, and totally open to interpretation. Some are way more clear cut than others. I call what Lanning did “gamesmanship,” not unsportsmanlike. Both are subjective. If you want to call what Lanning did unsportsmanlike, great… write the rule or at least enforce it.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
Teams can decline that delay of game penalty when the offense does it on purpose but for some reason never do. I asked my buddy who's on a SEC crew that question and he confirmed.
You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton
As previously pointed out above. It would have been extremely difficult to prove in real time, but now that Lanning has pretty much confessed to using the tactic he won’t get away with this tactic going forward.
————
an unfair act as described in the rulebook
c An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs during
the game This includes substitutes, coaches or any other persons subject to
the rules, other than a player or official, interfering in any way with the ball
or a player while the ball is in play (AR 4-2-1-II, 9-2-3-I and 9-2-3-IV)
PENALTY— Unsportsmanlike conduct. The referee may take any action
they consider equitable, which includes directing that the
down be repeated, including assessing a 15-yard penalty,
awarding a score, or suspending or forfeiting the game [S27].
The Velvet Frog
You called me BumJuice, Cjmgobucks? Interesting.
BTW, It wasn’t genius. Processing information very quickly is an indicator of genius. He said in his press conference that his team spends an inordinate amount of time on situational game planning and that this was a result of that inordinate amount of time. Meaning, he didn’t come up with it on the fly. He has spent time figuring out ways to game the system. So genius no, conniving yes. Take it from someone who has a 145 IQ, what he did was not genius.
Lets take a look at you though. You said,
I would venture that you, too, are not a genius, I’ll posit a 96 IQ for you. Because I told you in my post how it was cheating, and yet you failed to comprehend the basic reading of the text, see below.
Perhaps you should concentrate on reading comprehension before engaging in name calling, like BumJuice? But then again, that might be asking a lot from a 96.
Is it really cheating? If you believe it is, there are rules on the books that allow the officials to immediately step and penalize it. As fans we should be more concerned about how the officials felt compelled to inject themselves into the game with the unusual OPI call, but failing to call the defense for DPI the play prior when Smith was mugged and it likely resulted in him getting aggressive the next play. Then moments later, they fail to handle the 12 players on the field appropriately even though Day was calling it out pre snap.
GeorgiaBuckeye
That’s just great coaching, if we did that we’d be so excited and proud of how smart they were
~Because we couldn't go for three~
I wouldn’t; honestly.
The Velvet Frog
apparently there are different rules of thought at play here. If I want to win, I'm leaving no doubt as to how it's done. For others, like Lanning and yourself, not so much.
Not trashing you, just pointing out the differences in what some people are comfortable with and what some, aren't.
This is what I don't want after a win: https://www.aol.com/sports/ncaa-mulling-season-action-oregons-154542236....
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
It was genius.
If you can’t make a fourth and one, you don't deserve to win.
If you cheered for the buckeyes the way you do the opponents, you’d be a bigger homer than I am. Unfortunately, you’re the opposite of that.
If Day did this we would all applaud the cosmic brain move. It is what it is. We were on the recieving end of it and it sucks.
in the wrong direction.
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
They should switch to the NFL replay system midseason too. The current replay system is abysmal. Constant reviews of insignificant plays. It really hurts the pace of the game. Give the coaches a challenge flag and review touchdown's and turnovers.
I'd also like to see them quit stopping the clock on first downs inside of 2 minutes. That gives the offense training wheels inside of 2 minutes and is a massive disadvantage to the defense.
I agree that doing this is just exploiting the rules to your advantage and it rule should be changed BUT... What would have happened if we had thrown a TD pass? Would we or could have just waived off the penalty and scored the TD?
Just keep going. Everybody gets better if they keep at it...
Here’s what we do if we see them again. Put in a walk on goon LB. He targets their QB and puts him out. Our guy is ejected and replaced by our regular LB. It’s all with in the system…..thinking outside the box right there…
You’re comparing apples and oranges. NOBODY is arguing about being a NO Saint and putting a bounty on somebody’s head…
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
Not apples and oranges at all. Only difference is the degree (a player gets hurt). But same arguments apply so... Buddy Ryan was a genius.
"Make Helen Well"
your sarcasm font was apparently missed but I was thinking a similar thing where if it's not cheating, why wouldn't a team at some point play dirty, or, dirtier than what lanning just did.
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
Two things… sarcasm wasn’t missed; however, it was used as an argument so I felt obligated to respond with my opinion to the posted sarcastic hypothetical. Secondly, football is over 150 years old. You think players have never been targeted and/or taken out on purpose by opposing teams? C’mon… the rules in football are designed to make the game safer than ever even though we still see unfortunate and gruesome injuries on a regular basis. And unsavory acts on the field by players and coaches will always be an unfortunate part of the game. However, it’s quite a jump going from taking a penalty on purpose to manipulate the clock to taking out an opponent on purpose to create an advantage.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
It's not just the "extra player" that's the issue. It's also a safety issue as you pointed out.
Suppose Will Howard throws his pass to the right on that play, where the extra guy is. Our player gets tackled by one of the "legal 11" players and now the 12th guy comes in and maybe not intentional, causes injury to our player who is now out for the season.
What are you saying now?
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
I can come up with hypotheticals all day long. Football is a dangerous sport where bad injuries occur. You’re utilizing fallacy in your argument by coming up with the randomness of the universe to support your argument having one extra player on the field raises the danger level exponentially. If you want to bring a statistician in to specifically determine what percentage of the time your hypothetical would occur, I’m happy to listen and would be open to changing my opinion if the facts dictated so. Otherwise, I’m going to fall back on the absolute randomness of your scenario. And shit happens. Hell, I spent 6 months on crutches after surgery from a blown out knee taking a hard hit while catching a pass in a pick up game of coed two hand touch in college. If I didn’t want that to be even a minute possibility, I probably shouldn’t have played. Shit happens and football is dangerous.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
Yes!
“Because I couldn't go for three.” - Woody Hayes
I’m fine with it. Gabriel is half way to retirement anyway. Fuck em.
ROLL BUCKEYES!
So this play from the Ducks, and the last second time out from Kirby Smart that would have given OSU a first down on the fake punt, the 2019 Clemson game scoop and score that didnt count, I can't take it anymore, make the bleeding stop.... lol
It's simple. Do a 10 sec add on plus yardage if the offense is trailing. Offenses get 10 sec run offs in situations when they commit a penalty or have an injury unless they burn a time out I believe. No way Lanning does it if it resulted in that outcome.
You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton
Call it the POS Lanning rule.
Round on the ends and "HI" in the middle. O-HI-O.
I don't care. Just leave no doubt. We have a loaded roster and still got beat. We should have taken care of business in the first 59 minutes and 50 seconds.
I think was Wisky (Bert as coach) was offsides maybe 3 straight times on the kickoff to run the clock out. Guessing the rule changed the next year.
I remember that as I watched that game on TV. Thought it was both f'ed up and brilliant.
Some of the whining on here is unbelievable. If the shoe was on the other foot and Ryan Day did this, everyone would be singing his praises. Give them their props, they found a loophole that was available for EITHER TEAM to utilize and exploited it to their advantage. Tip the cap and move on.
Everyone? Nah. If a team needs loopholes to win, sooner or later there won't be any more loopholes and they'll beg for mercy.
Michigan. lol.
PSA: grayed out comments get read the most. Thanks!
If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a million times: all penalties in the last two minutes of a game should be reviewed. Not only might this one been properly sorted out but also the onside KO offsides penalty against Minnesota vs Michigan, which occurred with 1:37 to play. That’s just one other example. There are likely dozens, possibly hundreds of penalties that might have been overturned if a 2:00 auto review rule was in place.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Depending where they are at on the field, they could have done that several times and waste 20 seconds or more. Bert (at Wisconsin then) expolited a kickoff rule against PSU. There were 24 seconds on the clock and he intentionally had his players line up offsides. He kicked it twice, and the time went fom 24 seconds down to 4. This was a the end of the half if I remember right. He kicked in legally on the 3rd try as the clock ran out on the squib return.
Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect - Woody Hayes
It was classless but so is the entire Phil Knight University
Screw the Blue (and that gawd-awful yellow)
Closing the barn door after the horses come home....
But at least they're looking at making a change.
A good general always makes you search for his weaknesses. - Woody Hayes
It should never have come down to this anyway. That said it'd be nice if OSU was on the winning end of the these kinds of BS calls too. Won't fault Oregon for doing it though. Unlike stealing signs, this was actually legal to do.
Awesome to see.
This incident is part of my silver lining to the Oregon game. They had to throw the kitchen sink at us (the onside kick, and this 12th man thing). AND we shot ourselves in the foot a bit - AND our defensive scheme and execution were bad - all to beat us by only a point in their house (and we were in position to have a game winning FG). We'll see them basically in our back yard in December
That's kind of where I am. Yes the Buckeyes could've/should've done things a lot better/different. But Lanning had this 12 man thing and the onside prepped because he knew he would need it...and did. Long way to go.
You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton
Surprised Lanning admitted it. If you are an OSU coach or player, the remainder of this year is about "settling family business."
1) wasting 6 seconds on the offensive PI call would've proved more useful. If Day has truly given play calling to Chip he should've been managing the clock and burned the timeout.
2) agree with the sentiment that Lanning's choice was in poor taste. Respect your opponent enough to play 11v11. He already gotten the "gift" of the OPI but he got greedy. Not the 1st time an in-conference opponent stretched the line of ethics but OSU's strength invites it.
Why stop at 12? Put 13, 15, 20 guys out there. If there is no rule against it, exploit the crap out of it.
Would OSU have the balls to do that in a game, this season, where the outcome (an OSU win is in hand) and you want to see how it is officiated (or just want to send a message)?
Meh - there are a hundred reasons why Ohio State lost - this one was not one I care to worry about!
The best thing about Pastafarianism? It is not only acceptable, but advisable, to be heavily sauced
I am not sure I would have only put 12 men on the field if I was Oregon. Why not 50 men on the field and have 20 rushers. Try like hell to force a fumble or interception. Run around the field until clock runs out. Only thing would be to not commit personal foul.
Uhh… if the officials didn’t call THIS hypothetical unsportsmanlike conduct… then I accuse the NCAA of LOI and then it really has become collegiate fake wrestling.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
They would have. This hypothetical shows the point many are missing: it is unsportsmanlike conduct to intentionally put in too many players. If it's only 1 extra player, you can't tell if it was accidental or purposeful, though so you can get away with just a 5 yard penalty.
"Make Helen Well"
My biggest gripe is the OPI penalty against Smith.
The entire game, the officials let the CBs and WRs basically mug each other. And they decide to throw a flag with 30 seconds left???
My final point… and then I’ll shut the hell up… We’re in the era of NIL. Savory gamesmanship, coaching practices / strategies, loyalty to a school/team or even fair play, and spirit of amateur competition are over. It’s a new world order in college sports. Better get used to it. This is college football in 2024. I don’t necessarily like it… but it’s how the game is played now.
(and please don’t try to equate this to what those cheating fucks did up north. It’s 2 completely different beasts).
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
You may be right (about where we're at now) but I hope not and disagree that it's the way we should do it (Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds used those arguments). You're wrong that it's completely different from TCUN, though. It's not nearly as egregious but really just a matter of degree.
"Make Helen Well"
Hope the Buckeyes are focusing on Nebraska and not these stories. Its over, cant change what happened. Focus on the goals, Buckeyes control their own destiny.
CBus love
They followed the rules of the game. OSU was outcoached again. Nebraska and IU both have good QBs and Nebraska plays good defense. That is the formula to outcoach Day and Chunk!
All these comments about how a ref screws up the OPI and 12th man call....3 words for yall....House Never Loses. Vegas called, we have "x" amount on the line, so "x" needs to happen. Always follow the money.
Shit Happens Bum Juice
Sadly I believe there is more truth to this than any of us are willing to admit.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
“My final point… and then I’ll shut the hell up”
- Cjmgobucks one hour prior to, in fact, not shutting the hell up.
The Velvet Frog
I saw lines anywhere from the Buckeyes being favored by 2.5-3.5. A Buckeye field goal wouldn’t have changed much with Oregon winning by 1 or Buckeyes by 2. Either way they wouldn’t have covered. The O/U was around 54 so that was already hit. I’m all for a good Vegas conspiracy, but this game wasn’t a great example unless you had other ideas to explain.
You're too stupid to have a good time. -Dalton
I'll stand firm that Coach Day wouldn't have ever considered such an action at the end of a game. I could be wrong, but I don't see Coach Day as being that kind of coach.
Dan Lanning tells us they practice it. Doing so reeks of desperation and insecurity. He's no genius. He found a loophole and exploited it in the biggest game his program has played since 2015. Look at his demeanor and expressions in that interview. It's like he is telling his Dad that he was the one who broke the window when he was 10, even though Dad beat his little brother for it. I was a big fan of his after learning of his back story last fall. Now, it seems that he's not the person he claims to be.
A defensive back grabbing a receiver who has him beaten is a penalty within gameplay.
Adding an extra player to the field of play after a timeout (and before the snap) is outside of gameplay.
One is not unsportsmanlike, but results in a 15-yard penalty and a first down. The other is very unsportsmanlike, and results in a 5-yard penalty and maybe a first down. The clock runs in both scenarios, so the penalty should be the same.
Lanning doesn't do such a thing if the Bucks would have rec'd 15 yards there. Oregon would have lost that game.
Go Bucks!
I hope ALL the teams involved in close games this weekend do the same thing Lanning pulled , including OSU if they are in that position.
Oregon to me seems to be a gimmick team . The crazy line of scrimmage sets , the trick plays , the rule book loopholes , even the ugly ass uniforms they switch out all the time. Its like we know we cant beat straight out , we have to do all this other stuff to give us a chance
^ this. Dan Lanning's Ducks are no different than the previous times we played them (2009, 2014). they may be a bit more physical now, but they have always been an overrated gimmick team. Lanning lost to UW twice last year.
OSU should beat them in a rematch. Does anyone really think Oregon would beat a top tier SEC team in the playoffs?
Clearly I’m in the minority opinion here and, though most of you probably won’t believe me, I’m very conservative as it relates to the rules of the game and what is acceptable and what is not. I’m just not seeing the egregiousness of the tactic. I’m just not. There’s way more egregious shit going on in that sport, on TV, behind the scenes, etc. I don’t believe it should have happened but it did. And at the time of the occurrence, it wasn’t forbidden. I do hope something is enacted in the near future to prevent it. Until then, I call it gamesmanship, while a lot of you call it unsportsmanlike conduct. You have your opinion which you’re entitled to and obviously you’ve seen my personal opinion and, to use a current favorite colloquialism of this board…. I’ll die on that hill! :-)
Go Bucks. Beat Bye Week!
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
Flagrant misconduct could have a 48 hour window for an appeal and the results reversed.
In fairness, Tressel would have been busted a few times. There were occasions I recall where he arguably used penalties to run down the clock a little towards the end.
I am not addressing whether it is sportsmanlike behavior or whether players or coaches should be manipulating rules like this to their advantage. But gaming the clock has always been part of Sports.
It could be as simple as a defender who is intentionally slow to unpile himself off a downed player so they can't get up quickly as the clock winds down. This happens all the time. Our right tackle did it to a Maryland receiver at the end of the first half at The Shoe last season. He was lying on top of him and had a few 'stumbles' that placed him back on top when he was getting off. Everyone in the stands was laughing because it was obvious it was a pile-on to delay his exit and burn a couple of those remaining few seconds.
The problem with enforcement is it's hard for officials to actually prove intent in the moment. There is no way to do so. Maybe that defender legitimately stumbled and fell back down on top of the receiver holding the ball. As long as he quickly gets back up officials wont call a penalty. But looking for ways to shave a couple of seconds off the clock has always been around and probably always will be.
Whether this is unsportsmanlike behavior or just part of the game is for everyone to debate. But people only make an issue out of it when they are on the receiving end, never when they are the ones delivering it.
Is there a moral difference between a coach using a penalty to shave time or a player being slow to get up off a player in order to burn off a couple of seconds? Time-shaving is time-shaving. Happens all the time.
BubbaGumps
Woulda, coulda, shoulda ... Day's record vs. Top 5 teams is more concerning to me! Mr. 3rd Base - didn't win with Stroud, Harrison, and on and on and on ...
MW
It's day now, but historically it's os. A guy put up the records the other day of 18 teams that lost one game to the wrong opponent that cost os a natty. That's through generations of coaches. Even Saban failed. It's sport, it's competition, I understand that and accept it accordingly.
I was kind of fine losing because it was a damn good game, but then doing the loophole intentionally because they had 0 faith in their coaches and players tells a lot. The result is the result but if they lose the remainder of their games I wouldn't but too upset
bbb; If you look at their remaining schedule they Shouldn't lose a game, it's really weak. But there's a reason they play the games. Don't know if we'll play them again, but I'd like them undefeated if so.
There is one good thing that may come out of this. With Lanning being so smug about everything, if we do play Oregon again this season, it should be one ticked off and motivated Ohio State team.
I also wonder. I'd the NCAA will be keeping a closer eye on their games since they've come up publicly saying they didn't on purpose. They probably would have been better off playing dumb
Day should learn to Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.
That was Bush-League by Lanning.
JoeCleveland
I actually hate when this shit comes up for review after we take one in the ass. Too little too late.
klusewski
I am totally shocked a rule change occurs after OSU gets screwed by a rule.Who could ever foresee OSU getting screwed by a rule and incompetent refs at a critical moment?
Hate to say it, but college football is becoming unwatchable.
"There's always going to be an element of pressure when you walk on the stage." -Eddie George
I am sorry to those that posted "conspiracy theory" threads or comments that insisted Lanning did this on purpose. I didn't make any negative comments here, but IRL I rolled my eyes and thought that you needed to get over the loss and stop looking for excuses. You were right on this. My bad. We still need to get over the loss and move on, but yes, they did indeed game the system on purpose.
"Because the rules won't let you go for three." - Woody Hayes
THE Ohio State University
I have no problems accepting when we lose fair and square, but I hate that this happened. I watch football to see the best talent win with the ball, not to see who can exploit loopholes.
wb5
Time-shaving happens everywhere using all kinds of questionable methods. Teams are going to get away with what they can when it comes to gaming the clock. Only way to change this is to change rules on game clock management at the end of a half. The method someone uses to shave time off the clock when the opposition has the ball varies but it happens everywhere. Some are common methods and some are rare.
At the Maryland game last year I recall the Terrapins were close to scoring at the end of the half. There were twenty-seconds left. Time was running down and fans were laughing and screaming, "Hold him down" as a couple players were obviously trying to delay the receiver from getting back to the line in time. It worked and the clock ran out.
Not defending any specific decision. Just putting this in perspective. Time-shaving is time-shaving and finding questionable and creative ways to run down the clock is a staple of Sports and probably always will be. As mentioned before, people only notice it or make a deal of it when they are on the receiving end.
The play begins at 4:32 :
BubbaGumps
That's another good example. I get the practice of it, but I still hate it. It's why I don't follow UFC because there are some fighters who are notorious for having boring fights but still win. This is not the only reason why we lost though, so I'm not full-blown upset.
wb5
The thing is, it's hard to prove. It has to be blatant without any room for doubt--i.e.the defender laying on top of the receiver and not letting him up. Maybe the defender did trip on top of him two times when getting up. But common sense says otherwise.
I do recall this because everyone on the Md sidelines was jumping up and down going off on the refs trying to argue that progress was impeded and the defender was intentionally pushing him down. Coach complained about the play after the game and said the refs blew it by not calling interference and resetting the clock. But the fans were screaming "Yeah ! Hold Him Down." so obviously they thought that's the aim. Same of these fans might now be complaining about Lanning being unsportsmanlike by using a penalty to shave three seconds off the clock.
I am not bashing the Bucks with this example. Just saying you won't find a team that isn't sometimes looking to get away with what they can. Time shaving is the oldest trick in the book and everyone finds ways to do it at times.
BubbaGumps
Within 3 plays the refs inserted themselves into the outcome of the game. Regardless of Lanning cheating the refs should have called it as it should have been called. The 12th man made no effort to get off the field and participated in the play actively. That’s 15 yards and an easy field goal.
Buckeye4life
Danny boy FUCKING CHEATED THE game. #BushLeague
OH-IO Goodbye Columbus, Living at the Beach
So my question is this, everyone thinks what Stalions did was cheating but maybe he just found a loophole in the system when he was not going to games himself, does it really matter what the loophole is. If you have to loophole your way through anything in life than you will not be successful. I pray to god we get another shot at this prick cause I want to roll them into the ground and then run the score up on their asses.
I’m sorry, but I didn’t have time to read everything today so don’t know if this type of comment has been posted already. I made a comment during the game thread in the PL after the onside kick that Oregon always pulls this stunt shit and this is how they do things. We should’ve expected this nonsense. I really have a lack of respect for teams that have to use trickery so often to win. But, it really should never have come down to this anyway. We executed poorly, they played physically, and it should never come down to one play when you have the team that we fielded.
They always consider a rule change after we get screwed. Little good it does us now.
~We'll Get Em' Next Year~
I haven't read all of the above comments because frankly, I just want to vent. I expect that OSU gets the very best that everyone "we" play can throw at "us." That's fair and it comes with the position that OSU holds. It is actually a form of respect and I am good with that. I also expect that every coach we play who can will look for a way to try to exploit a rule or cross some line to gain an advantage. I am less okay with that, but we are a long ways from the culture that Clair Bee wrote about in the 1940's and 1950's in sportsmanship in football. The past three years should have made that point loud and clear for anyone in the WAC.
WHAT I AM NOT OKAY WITH IS A COACHING STAFF that does not anticipate this sh*t. What are we doing with our interns? Why in the world is some group of them not cataloguing every play or attempted play like this one that happens across the college (and high school) football landscape and communicating this to the coaching staff. IT IS INEXCUSABLE to have a "$20 MILLION TEAM" run by a coaching staff who does not apparently expect these kinds of things to occur. We were obviously unprepared to respond to that intended penalty and we certainly were unprepared to field a hard on sides kick. This is ridiculous. You have 365 days to think about these things and to organize how to deal with them. You do not have to do them yourself, but you DAMN WELL BETTER be prepared to react correctly when they are done to you. Can you catch everything. No. But OSU is consistently the victim of a competing coaching staff who out thinks and out prepares us. There should not be an unexpected event... We need to play 3 dimensional chess and throw the damn checker board out the f*cking window. Stop acting as if you are just glad to be at the party and impose your will on them. End of rant. My apologies for likely repeating what others have said in a more eloquent manner.
Keep Ohio Clean. Dump Your Trash in Michigan!
We are becoming a very soft program.
Wonder what Speilman is doing these days......
Bucks Fan since 1970
Avoiding the fanbase and social media most likely.
You know how people here will sometimes post the comical reactions from MGoBlog after an awful game or.recruiting setback for TTUN? Well, that's other fanbases reacting to these comments.
Another team found a way within the rules to get the better of us. Crying about it is absolutely pathetic.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
Well, that's how sports fandoms usually goes. They get upset, we laugh. We get upset, they laugh. It does not bother me the slightest.
wb5
How many times do we need to see that Ryan Day is not the sharpest tack in the box when it comes to clock management? Lanning schooled him. And we should have called TO after Smith’s O-Interference penalty. Let 10-15 seconds lapse. Ended the game with 1 TO in our pocket.
Our coach needs to learn the rules.
Class of ‘71
I think Lanning tops Franklin on my hate for current B1G coaches
I hopped on here thinking fans would be upset about the exploitation of the loophole in the rule, but also respect the smarts of Lanning to use the loophole to Oregon’s advantage. I was wrong. Our shit fanbase is again playing the victim card and whining that we were “cheated” by a perfectly legit move by Lanning. You wanna know why people despise Ohio State fans? It’s shit like this.
"In America, anyone can become president. That's the problem." George Carlin
Yeah, the bitch of some people still thinking sportsmanship and ethics matter.
Blasting the kickoff at a cover guy when you are kicking from the 50, smart play. putting extra men on the field intentionally to kill clock, unethical (and stupid since by rule it could have garnered a 15 yard unsportsmanlike penalty).
Give me a fucking break. If Day had done the same thing you and the rest of the clowns on here would have been singing his praises. There is nothing unethical or unsportsmanlike about exploiting a loophole in the rules.
"In America, anyone can become president. That's the problem." George Carlin
I GO ON THE INTERNET AND SWEAR AND CALL STRANGERS NAMES!!!!!
Michigan Cheated
Guilty as charged, fuckface.
"In America, anyone can become president. That's the problem." George Carlin
I did not realize this was intentional until after the game was over. What Lanning did reminds me of what Vrabel did to Belichick in the playoffs a few years back. I would not call it cheating, just finding a loophole in the rule. The clock should be put back to ten seconds and the yardage should be more, at least 10-15 yards. If you can't figure out how to get 11 men on the field, then that should be stiffer than a five yard penalty.
This is what I am referring to, kind of made me laugh that Belichick got outsmarted by his protege.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTsvc9pkZ04
"The future is bright at Ohio State." ~Urban Meyer
Fuck Oregon, hope we get to play them again.
BEAT MICHIGAN.
The cowardice of intentionally having an extra player on the field isn't far away from what michigan did. Karma will find Oregon for that at some point this season.
Seems like cheating pays off now and as much money is at stake why wouldn't you? The governing body is ineffective so the reward far outweighs the risk. Power 4 needs to break off and form their own league.
egbluesuede