The zero punts in the 4th quarter stat is honestly unbelievable. I think it really speaks to our lack of rotation and refusal to play well-rested players to give our starters a break so they can close out games strong.
Knowles is supposed to be the mastermind but his defenses get shredded when everyone is tired. I don't know if it's his responsibility to sub out guys or the position coaches, but something has to change.
If we know these stats it means Day knows them as well. I'm sure Knowles has been made well aware of his 4th quarter failures.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Right? I mean did you ever think in your lifetime that an OSU defense couldn’t find a way to force a punt in the 4th Q? It’s damning. And unsustainable.
That is one of the reasons why I am frustrated with the lack of rotations. We are getting bullied at the end. Of course, there are more than a few that think Mick’s strength and conditioning is antiquated and leads to this.
Of course, there are more than a few that think Mick’s strength and conditioning is antiquated and leads to this.
They could bring in the most ridiculous S&C coach to ever do it and they are going to be tired at the end of a 3 hour game when every defensive starter is in the game for 50+ snaps. There isn't a human body that can tolerate that, yet we watched then try to do it with 11 human bodies against a team with speed.
Depth was discussed all offseason as a strength and it's not being used.
Yep, Matthews Jr sure is getting some run time. Reese got no time to give Simon a rest. The DT got maybe 10 snaps off because of certain rush packages. When all of the starters are playing over 50 snaps, idk how you can expect them to be 100% in the 4th quarter
The sad part is from what was stated last week, Oregon's weakness on O is their interior OL. I thought the guys in the middle were going to feast.
I'm a Steelers fan, so for reference let's look at guys like TJ Watt and Cam Heyward. Arguably two of the best in the NFL. They are on the sidelines repeatedly getting rest.
Even if they didn't play "well" against lesser opponents, you can't expect your starters to play well for 4 straight quarters (and they don't, as we've seen repeatedly) because they'll be exhausted. Even if it's just for a few plays you absolutely have to put backups into the rotation.
Also, if you're afraid to give up yardage earlier in the game so you don't sub out your starters, but then you give up loads of yardage and force zero punts in the 4th quarter when the game really matters, maybe you should look at your priorities. I'd gladly sacrifice 3-4 plays of yardage in the 2nd and/or 3rd quarter so our best players can actually have an impact in the 4th quarter.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
But, but, but there are supposed experts on here that when one says this we are told to go sit in the corner and let the grownups talk and the lack of rotation is fine. We are told the starters need the reps.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
that's a helluva stat and an eye brow raiser for sure. Can't get off the dang field and now it's triggering me from the trauma of watching these defenses in the fourth quarter not be able to get a stop
You’d think by accident a team would fumble or throw a pick to OSU because, football, but they don’t even get a turnover when they desperately need one. Probably goes back to the fact they get no pressure on the QB late in the games
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
"Probably goes back to the fact they get no pressure on the QB late in the games."
That's THE biggest issue in my eyes and I discuss it below. OSU has, on paper at least, an excellent DL but they just don't seem to have the 1 or 2 game changers you need and late in the game everybody seems wiped. Rotation would help but honestly I think we are also missing a Chase Young/Bosa type guy that is unguardable 1 on 1. Obviously those guys don't grow on trees but I hope the staff prioritizes seeking out the difference makers in recruiting and via the portal.
"In weightlifting, I don't think sudden, uncontrolled urination should automatically disqualify you."
-Jack Handey
A coach is suppose to develop, prepare, and scheme. A decent coach can scheme up pressure. You don't need to have a Myles Garrett type defensive end in order to generate QB pressure.
The numbers don’t lie. OSU has been much better in second halves of games. This game though, they played to a stalemate in the second half. Should have gone for two on one of those touchdowns. That’s not me with hindsight. I. Was literally screaming at the tv when I see them line d up for PAT
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Rill Dill - That happens when the opposition is not equivalent talentwise regarding both the 1st team and subs. The opponents can't substitute because the 2nd team talent is a dropoff from their starters and the starters show a performance dropoff late in the 3th and throughout the 4th quarter. There have been a couple of close games at half time this season, but we score almost at will in the 2nd half. That's why some people consider us a 2nd half team. It's not totally us, it's a dropoff in the competition in the 2nd half, In my opinion. Less talented teams just can't compete in the second half. But those stats that started this thread, to me, show that either we don't substitute correctly, or we don't have the depth to compete, I believe it is primarily the substitution philosophy.
I feel the same way. Under previous coaches, i felt fairly comfortable that we would get the defense stops in the 4th. Now, i just chew my fingernails down to nothing, then gets so disappointed in the final result.
I agree with everything you said.
Chicago Fish
'90
My brick by the stadium has my name and "Woody Forever". Let me know if you see it/
I think not forcing a punt in the 4th quarter of talent equated games is a big story. A definite trend. It’s nice to hold a team to an FG, but it feels like doom in these games when the defense can’t get off the field and always surrenders points.
I think it would still be a big story. Anything more than one game suggests something troubling is occurring against top opponents in the 4th quarter. I think it was already big after the first two TCUN losses but blowing the lead against Georgia and not being able to stop Oregon at all make it a bigger deal.
It's just also a vibe, man. Like, I just don't feel confident in our d to do anything in the 4th Quarter to get a stop. I've never felt that way as an OSU fan in 25 years.
When it all comes together, it’s wonderful. 2019 was that but it didn’t end with a NC either. 2014 was a gritty defense and 2001 was similar. Both statistically paled in comparison to 2019 tho. I’m hoping (that’s all I can do) that this defense finds that grittiness. We have the talent to do that. I just think Oregon had one hell of a good offensive game plan. Hats off to them for that. They played a different style than expected and caught us a little off guard. Can’t let that happen again tho.
I posted this in a different thread. The 2019 defense was made to look pretty ordinary the last three games of the season against TTUN, Wisconsin and Clemson, giving up over 400 yards a game and over 6 yards a play over that stretch.
I feel like so many people just remembers how dominant they were through the first 11 games and forget how they faded down the stretch.
Knowles has been nothing but an expensive way to blow national championships. Been out on him since that UGA game, his calls in the fourth quarter of that game were absurd. Ransom on their fastest WR with no help and a two score lead...somehow not getting pressure but also not playing coverage behind it, what a concept!
You’re absolutely correct with this view. Played zone the entire third quarter if I remember correctly and pretty much shut georgia down and then inexplicably does what he did in the 4th quarter. Time and score Jim. Force Georgia to burn clock even if they score and we win. I guess 75 yards in one play was his idea of burning clock. Im beginning to think this guy was a 2 million dollar mistake.
Then when we needed a stop against TUN last year, soft zone for a seven minute drive down the field. He is so bad at selecting when to be aggressive and not and not even good at being aggressive when he does.
It wasn't soft zone on the biggest 3rd down when their TE came off the line and threw the OSU defender to the ground and caught a 3 yard pass... but that's only OPI when it's JJ Smith. When Michigan does it, it's just hard nosed physicality.
I don't really count 2022 vs TTUN. All the others are damning (hate to curse but it is fitting). The coaches and players have to figure it out. No excuses. Tired of hearing that it was a really good game, and we lost because of a bad call.
It seems that we are very conservative on defense late in close games against top teams. Playing a soft cover keep everything in front of you makes sense in some situations but I think we’re doing it too soon and too often. It’s a “let’s not get beaten” strategy vs a “let’s trust our players and beat them” strategy.
In Knowles first season in Columbus he got aggressive in those cases and got burned but it was because we didn’t have the talent and experience we do now on the defensive side. I think he and Day over-reacted to that first season’s experience and they’re now too conservative on D in those close games.
I think they’ll figure it out after that Oregon loss
Perfectly said! It's psychological at this point on both sides of the ball. I believe that Day, the coaching staff, and the players do not want to screw it up and disappoint the fans so they play safe in the top 5 games. They call plays on offense that they can't possibly screw up and they don't take a lot of chances with motion, misdirection, sweeps, etc. On defense, they don't want to get burned on a deep pass or the QB taking off, so they play a bend but don't break style to keep everything in front of them. This leads to less blitzing, less exotic coverages, and players being tentative rather than reading their keys, diagnosing the play and just attacking the ball. This even goes to special teams. OSU does not block punts anymore or even try to and the return game is basically non-existent. OSU needs to treat ranked teams like they do non-ranked teams. Focus on blocking, tackling, and the fundamentals, but trust your athletes to make plays in the open field. Trust your secondary to cover well enough for a blitz to get home, mix up your personnel packages, call plays that opponents have not seen on film, etc. Also, don't let the defense dictate when you use your best players. Get the ball to Jeremiah on sweeps, reverses, screen passes, etc. Get the ball to Judkins and Henderson on speed option pitches, off tackle runs, on wheel and rail routes. Don't play carelessly, but don't be afraid to make mistakes or turn the ball over on offense and it's not the end of the world if the defense gives up a big play. Burke could have benefitted from a series off to look at the plays on the previous drive, figure out what's going on and make adjustments. This defense will improve when they worry less about giving up the big play and more about just attacking the ball and pressuring the QB.
Yeah, I feel that on offense against Oregon. All those creative run plays and different screens we were using this season, as well as better RPOs and what did we get?
+ Bubble screens (GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR)
+ DUO, Boundary stretch run plays
+ Lots of classic dropbacks (TBF, Howard did great at this).
Good examples. Even the wing T formation that they ran worked. They ran the same play twice out of that formation. Why not come back to that formation later in the game and fake a handoff to Judkins and run a QB keeper. You could also fake the handoff to Judkins, and have Henderson come on the backside to set up an option pitch, or you could do that and have a tight end leak out on an out route.
Wow. I hadn’t been as down about these big game losses as many here, but these stats are making me see things in a darker light. I’d be really curious to see the coaches reactions if presented. I know we wouldn’t get a straight answer but i dont think one could even coach speak around these.
We gave up 54 points and scored 16. I wish I hadnt read this post. Pretty much sums up the fact that days teams have had trouble finishing the biggest games ND last year as the outlier.
It’s ultimately Day’s responsibility. If he indeed brought in Knowles and is allowing this (rift between Knowles and LJ) to happen, we have serious issues on our hands and the only way to fix it is with a complete overhaul of coaches from the head man himself all the way down to the lowest paid coach.
My point is you don’t bring in a defensive coordinator and handicap him by not allowing him to bring in his own guys. If, and this is a big if, this supposed rift between philosophies between Knowles and Johnson has been going on for awhile, Knowles is responsible to correct it, ultimately, Day is responsible for it to get corrected. Going on two years of it is unacceptable and is hurting the team.
Give up all the points they want to. But make sure in your last drive there are no fuckups. That puts too much pressure on the offense to be perfect. This isn’t Friday night lights. They can’t be perfect
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Pretty wild to think since that 2016 defense, we've really only had one good year (2019 with Hafley). Schiano, Coombs, Knowles. I guess the bright spot is Knowles isn't giving up 55 to Iowa and 49 to Purdue?
According to Biddle on yesterday's BM5 the defense doesn't practice tackling. Not at all. So yeah, there's going to be problems on defense. Tackling is the foundation of defense and we don't practice it.
This's damn near a fireable offense if you ask me.
Didn't Knowles recently say something about how it's something you can't practice live? I was confused about that. I mean, surely they tackle when they scrimmage, right?
"In weightlifting, I don't think sudden, uncontrolled urination should automatically disqualify you."
-Jack Handey
My assumption is they don't do it weekly in season, excluding bye weeks or bowl practice. Wish they would do it more, but OSU has also been snakebitten with injuries.
This season specifically it does seem like the D does better in the second half, which is refreshing. We held Oregon to 10 in the second half, which honestly is tough to complain about against a prolific offense (and on the road no less), but all of those were in the 4th quarter, which is interesting.
I don't know what the answers are- is it lack of confidence coming from the top? Is it lack of rotation leading to exhaustion (especially on the DL) at the end of games? Is the play-calling too conservative? I don't know, but I hope Knowles and Day take a hard look and make it a point of emphasis.
On the bright side, this OSU offense is really good, especially in the red zone and were it not for a number of things (Judkins turnover, onside kick, OPI on Smith etc), the Bucks would've won. I think we beat them in a rematch no problem.
I'll add, and I type this somewhat reluctantly, that some of OSU's defensive issues are personnel related and not on Knowles. Don't get me wrong- Sawyer, JT, Hamilton and Tyleik are all very good and some of the backups too (like Curry). But I'm not sure I would describe any of them as game changers, at least not against excellent OL's. Late in games, you want your DL's to have worn down opposing OL's, not the other way around, which seems to be what's happening to us. It's really hard for any defense to get big stops if you're not winning the LOS. We are gonna lose A LOT of DL's after this season and I hope that the staff is able to land a stud or two from the portal because we are probably gonna need it.
"In weightlifting, I don't think sudden, uncontrolled urination should automatically disqualify you."
-Jack Handey
I think we're all coming to the realization that a lot of the defensive stars that returned have maxed out their ability. That's not a terrible thing, but it means they need to be executing at a very high level to make up for the lack of game changing ability. They've been far too inconsistent.
As for a rematch, I hope you're right. The loss of Simmons is a huge setback. With him I could've seen the offense becoming dominant, but without him they have no true OTs and could regress in some areas. He was one of the players they couldn't lose.
Out of all the arguments I have seen against Day/Knowles, this this by far the most condemning. While the totality of these numbers are misleading with it being proven that Michigan cheated in AT LEAST 2022, the fouth quarter struggles are very real under day. Even removing the 2022 Michigan game, which I believe is fair, we have been outscored 33-13 over those other three games. Allowing 7 straight big game scoring drives on defense is the most unacceptable stat I've ever heard, and frankly, Knowles should probably lose his job over it.
Scoring only 13 points in those 7 drives is also an indictment, but it's also reasonable to understand that the defense has been putting an unfair amount of pressure on the offense in big games, and it isn't like the offense is completely turtling and going 3 and out. Out of those seven drives, we scored points on three of the four drives that weren't end-of-game, two-minute-drill-style drives. Then of the three two-minute drill drives, the offense responded by moving the ball 43, 44, and 49 yards respectively, and put us in position to win the game. The fact that we didn't win any of them is still gross, and legitimate complaints can be made about Day's inability to put 7's on the board in big games instead of 3's, but I can't honestly look at any of these games and blame the offense when the defense has looked as incompetent it has.
I have been a Knowles defender but that stat is genuinely terrible. Beyond giving up points, the D not getting off the field is keeping the offense from having more chances and more time. The offense had 4 second half possessions vs Oregon - it's hard to score if you don't have the ball.
Agree that playing safe is not working. And it plays into the hands of good-not-great offensive teams, since they can dink and dunk their way down the field in the 4th quarter. It was a stroke of luck that Oregon bogged down and didn't get in the end zone when they missed an open WR.
Been saying this all year and getting downvoted. The defense bends way too much and lets too much time come off the clock. Letting Akron drive for 8 and a half mins in the FIRST quarter this year was extremely telling for me. And yet when I pointed it out people acted like I was crazy
Landis should stick to his specialty, bad takes about the OL. Remember, he didn’t think Simmons would be a good LT. As it turns out, he was a really good LT.
Ok, then it's ok for the board to discuss the two games that you approve of, where our defense has forced zero punts in our only top 5 matchups under Day/Knowles?
Two important games. That might not be a trend but it is getting into the not good territory. Once can be excused, twice needs a closer look. There will be another ranked opponent away from the show coming up. Let’s see how they handle Happy Valley. If we are going by Franklin’s incompetence, that is t going to really calm things down about Day/Knowles/LJ defensive dilemmas
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Damn straight it needs looked at closer. I’ll say this tho, how you defend Georgia will be different than how you defend Oregon, so you won’t hear me say that there’s one single thing that will fix the issue. Each one is its own puzzle to solve. More aggressive might win a game but it might cost us the win against another team. Not an easy fix but still fixable. Nebraska is the next test even if it’s not a top 5 game but it’ll help propel them into PSU.
I felt very certain when Oregon got inside our 20 late in the game that they were going to score. At least a FG but at least 50% they would get a TD.
I said to some friends at the time when there was about 2:30 seconds left that we should just let Oregon score a TD. I felt more confident in our offense's ability to score a TD with 2:30 seconds left, 3 timeouts plus the 2 minute warning then I did in our ability to stop Oregon and prevent them from going ahead.
We will never know for certain but I still think we win that game if Oregon scored a TD with more than 2 minutes to go since I don't think they would have stopped us when we had essentially 4 timeouts. We had been moving the ball well all game.
I guess it comes down to what you had more confidence in, us scoring a TD with > 2 minutes left and what amounts to 4 timeouts or our ability to (1) stop them from scoring a TD (2) stopping them from getting a FG and (3) being able for us to score with about 60-90 seconds and potentially no timeouts or 1 timeout?
I just had way more confidence in our offense that game then I did in our defense.
I guess so but one also has to remember against good teams in a close game in the 4th quarter are also going to be calling out all the stops. You would still expect some stoppage but giving up a FG to me is not particularly bad in those sorts of things.
Against Oregon, Oregon could have punched it in and then the game is pretty much over.
I am not saying that these are wrong at all or that there are not issues but I think an expectation that you get stops all the top time against top teams. Look at other such games, if they are back and forth things than there is alot that goes into it. The defense for sure, but other teams have the same issues. If you watch college football, outside of blowouts, it is not uncommon for the team that is down to make a play late in the game.
It sucks but it is one of those things. The issue to me is not so much the 4th quarter, although it is highlighted, but not getting stops at other times. Letting conversions on 3rd and long or not making plays, whatever that looks like.
Then again, if Day had decided to let them score and the Bucks failed to score on the last drive, this place would be going ballistic calling it the most inept decision they have ever seen.
That's 100% true Bubbag but you can't coach a game based on that. If you lose you're going to get ripped either way by some of the fans and media so just do what you think you need to do to win the game.
We'll never know if letting them score once Oregon got into the red zone was the right play or not. I tend to think it was but I understand the opposing arguments too.
I think not only would we have won if we gave the offense the ball with 3 timeouts plus the 2 minute warning but that it would have been a great teaching and motivational thing for this team. Day could have properly ripped the D and defensive staff in the locker room by saying, "we had no choice since we just couldn't count on you to get the stop. You have to be better. Win your match-ups and then get us off the damn field" and then said "I had total faith in the offense being able to execute the plays, win their match-ups and win this game. Everyone on defense, you have 2 weeks before our next game. I expect you to work a hell of a lot harder and to not lose any match-ups versus our offense in these coming 2 weeks. You let us down this game but you're capable of much more. Prove it"
If this defense could just string together 2 consecutive stops (or even just one) in the 4th quarter, that record against top 5 teams would be changed.
Say what you want about the offense but they put up enough points to beat Georgia and Oregon. Probably Michigan also. They just don't get consecutive stops in the 4th quarter by the defense.
It is crazy to think that in most of the top 5 match ups they just needed 1 stop in the 4th quarter. They probably would have had 1 national title and at least 1 of those wins over Michigan.
Didn't even need a stop against UGA, just not a one play 75 yard drive. Knowles dialed up our strong safety on an island against their faster WR and one of his "blitzes", after another seemingly big game standard special teams blunder on the blown fake punt the play before.
They got two consecutive stops in the third quarter. Had Howard not fumbled and the offense goes up 2 scores it would have been a tough time for Oregon to comeback. They themselves would be searching for a stop they couldn't get in the second half.
Had Trey not reverted to 2022-2023 form and tried to bounce outside when he already had a clear shot at the first down, we're likely looking at a different result, too.
This team often seems snake bit at the worst times. They've got to get mentally tougher in those moments.
So with just 1 stop in the 4th quarter we would have beat Georgia we would have beat Ttun in 23 we would have beat Oregon. If our defense would have just had the failure rate of the offense in the 4th qtr we would have won 3 of those games. But knock yourself out thinking that Knowles is the guy (never believed he was and will never be convinced he is). Yep blame it on substitutions. I guess the only way to really know is check the substitution patterns of the teams we played to see if they are “more rested”. So how in the hell does Kentucky hold Georgia to 13 this year and Ole Miss (at Ole Miss) to 17. And just held Vandy to 20 after they put up 40 on Bama. I guess there players are more rested! Yeah right! I would say whoever is coordinating there defense knows a hell of a lot more then Jim Knowles. Because they sure haven’t recruited the talent that OSU has…. Gimme a break!
While these stats aren't good, they are also a bit cherry picked. We have been in 4Q games against PSU and ND the past couple of years where the defense made some big stops.
Do you believe that PSU or ND the last two year had the talent level of OSU, Oregon, Bama etc? I do think PSU has had dangerous teams the last couple of years but not the offensive prowess of the big dogs.
Do you believe that PSU or ND the last two year had the talent level of OSU, Oregon, Bama etc? I do think PSU has had dangerous teams the last couple of years but not the offensive prowess of the big dogs.
Probably not, but they were at least as good as UM on offense.
We have been saying this but everyone just wants to keep their rose colored glasses on. Knowles has to go. Not only zero 4th quarter stops but look up the yards and points allowed when playing top 10 teams. He has no feel for the game. His defenses continue to give up back breaking plays.
Did Day hire him on a three year contract? If so this is it for Knowles. If they finish the season on a good note and the defense redeems itself and the team runs the table, I think you retain him. I don’t like the odds of that happening but it’s still a possibility
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Ohio State's defense hasn't forced a punt in the fourth quarter of the four games he's called against top-five teams: 2022 vs. Michigan, 2022 vs. Georgia, 2023 vs. Michigan, 2024 vs. Oregon.
11 drives in those four games that ended in the fourth quarter: TD, Missed FG, TD, TD, FG, TD, TD, FG, FG, TD, FG.
Knowles prides himself on Stop Rate, how often you get off the field without allowing points.
Those numbers are alarming. What's even more frustrating is that most of those drives were slow, grinding, and agonizing.
Do you remember when we NEVER counted out a Tressel-coached team, a team that was mentally tough, a team that would end Heisman campaigns for opposing players and not begin them????
Vrabel is never coming here as a D Coordinator. The guys was a fairly successful NFL head coach. If the wheels come off this team, my $$ would be on Vrabel to be the next coach of the Buckeyes (but I honestly have no clue his desire for that job. He may only want to be an NFL guy from now on with the transfer portal, etc..).
I've been concerned for some time that Day's best team was his very first team and they COMPLETELY spit the bit against Clemson once they had that lead. They should have won that damn game. (I'm not sure what LSU / Burrow would have done against that squad though..).
If the Buckeyes don't sweep the rest of the regular season and make the Big 10 Title Game, the OSU administration is going to have a decision to make. If they drop another Big 10 game and miss out on the playoffs, Day may be unemployed in January.
Just look at what Caleb Downs did in a Saban defense and look at him here. He is clearly all over the field and one of the best defenders in the country but he is always making the stops. He is so busy making up for everyone else he isn’t free to be a ball hawk like he was at Alabama. It’s time for an NFL style defense.
Outside two of the Michigan games Day has no one to blame but himself. The team is snakebit. Come on. What are they?? The Browns for crying out loud? He’s got more talent than all but maybe six or seven teams in the country. His offense shit the bed in the cotton bowl last year. Don’t give me this “the game didn’t matter” shit. You telling all of those guys who wore scarlet and gray and suited up that the game didn’t matter? Missouri seemed to think it mattered.
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I find it impossible to believe Knowles suddenly can't coach football. We have athletes everywhere. It all comes back to us getting no pressure, no sacks in big games and that leaves our defensive backs chasing guys for 5 seconds or more.
It's Larry Johnson, you won't convince he's not the problem... it's not recruiting, it's not coaching, it's how he manages game day, like it's a 2005 big ten game..
This. Consistent Defensive line rotation has been a staple at OSU ever since FSU dismantled the 97 team with their 8+ deep DL rotation.
People have forgotten how weird it has been to only play 4 dudes 50-60+ plays - this was NOT the case under Urban Meyer or even Day 2019-2020. This LJ vs Knowles smoke has been here since he was hired, and it was mentioned on THE Podcast this morning by Landis.
There is a disconnect between the two, and if you need more evidence than the "Cover 0 Simulated Pressure drop 9" I don't know what would convince you.
Chiefs aren't all that dominant but they seem built to win close ones with Mahomes, Kelce, Butker and Chris Jones. Not saying Buckeyes should have guys that good but it's interesting to watch them. Very difficult to outlast in Q4.
You hit right st the point. The softness isn't physical, it's mental, and it comes from Day and the soft coaches he's prone to hiring and not firing until it's too late.
You hit right st the point. The softness isn't physical, it's mental, and it comes from Day and the soft coaches he's prone to hiring and not firing until it's too late.
Did I make it through this entire thread and nobody pointed out it's missing ND 2022. They were in the top 5. Now sure, overrated, I get it. But intentionally omitting a game from and already cherry picked data set seems pretty disingenuous to me.
That said, the trend in the 4 games that really mattered is quite alarming, and Knowles and Day both need to look themselves in the mirror and ask why it's happening and what they could do to fix it.
If we beat #3 Penn State on the road this year, I guarantee you many on this site will discount it.
some will some won’t. It might go back to the fact that a lot of OSU fans take beating them for granted. Which I don’t but there is a considerable amount that do, because James Franklin. Plus that’s a conference game so I think there are a lot of people who are looking at Day’s bowl and playoff record as not good. There’s nothing wrong with pointing it out. It’s not good. Still a lot of season left so we are anticipating that they hash out their differences on defense and right the ship to the ‘ship
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I agree the overall trend isnt good and I have my doubts about him. But I also think Day has had a really weird mix of mistakes and some real bad luck. Like if we all agree that Michigan ran a 3 year cheating scheme for a competitive advantage, then how do you count those losses against him?
As far as my comment goes - people tend to use numbers to support their narrative which is peculiar in this case because rankings are inherently subjective. There’s hardly much difference between a #5 team and an 8th ranked team for example. Rankings are just a general guide and they should be looked at that way.
Like do I think Penn State is the 3rd best team in the country? No. But I do think they’re somewhere around a top 10 squad and beating them at home isnt easy. So if Day pulls it off, he should get credit for it. Top 5, Top 10 - eh, not much difference.
That doesnt mean I dont have real concerns about him. I definitely do. But he has shown growth over these 6 years that lead me to believe he can get it done. He’s not Lincoln Riley.
Agree with everything, doubly agree with the last sentence.
For example if he makes the CFP final and loses the next 2 years he’ll most likely have a .500 record (without removing the Michigan cheating wins either) against top 5 teams and people will still complain he’s soft, not a killer, not a big game coach ect.
A game is "top 5" when it supports your narrative according to most on this site.
If we beat #3 Penn State on the road this year, I guarantee you many on this site will discount it.
Thank you, this is my point. We complain about this with SEC/rankings bias all the time, but we apparently do it to ourselves as a fanbase too. If we beat a top 5 ND/Penn St or whoever may find their way into that criteria at the moment, it gets discounted because we exposed them and they weren't that good. And if we had came out and flexed on Oregon and played the clean game we expected and won by a couple scores, the narrative would be much the same. Well, Oregon's not that good this year.
Bottom line, ND was inarguably ranked #5 for that 2022 game, and I am pretty sure we shut them out / won the 4th quarter that night. You can't pull stats like these and intentionally omit a game that meets the criteria. You have to include it, point out that ND wasn't truly a top 5 team, and say even with them in there, the numbers don't look good. But that's not what was done here, and it annoys me.
Woof, just listened to his new podcast. In summary, there have been 11 drives on offense/defense in big game fourth quarters...we have only scored on TD on offense...and only forced one stop on defense out of those 11. No wonder we are all mental disasters, that is unreal level of winning time incompetence.
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The zero punts in the 4th quarter stat is honestly unbelievable. I think it really speaks to our lack of rotation and refusal to play well-rested players to give our starters a break so they can close out games strong.
Knowles is supposed to be the mastermind but his defenses get shredded when everyone is tired. I don't know if it's his responsibility to sub out guys or the position coaches, but something has to change.
If we know these stats it means Day knows them as well. I'm sure Knowles has been made well aware of his 4th quarter failures.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Right? I mean did you ever think in your lifetime that an OSU defense couldn’t find a way to force a punt in the 4th Q? It’s damning. And unsustainable.
That is one of the reasons why I am frustrated with the lack of rotations. We are getting bullied at the end. Of course, there are more than a few that think Mick’s strength and conditioning is antiquated and leads to this.
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
I'd like to know where Lou Holtz is right now!
They could bring in the most ridiculous S&C coach to ever do it and they are going to be tired at the end of a 3 hour game when every defensive starter is in the game for 50+ snaps. There isn't a human body that can tolerate that, yet we watched then try to do it with 11 human bodies against a team with speed.
Depth was discussed all offseason as a strength and it's not being used.
Depth is being used and, when playing Power 4 teams, they are not playing well. Hence the heavy snap count for the starters.
Yep, Matthews Jr sure is getting some run time. Reese got no time to give Simon a rest. The DT got maybe 10 snaps off because of certain rush packages. When all of the starters are playing over 50 snaps, idk how you can expect them to be 100% in the 4th quarter
How firm thy friendship
The sad part is from what was stated last week, Oregon's weakness on O is their interior OL. I thought the guys in the middle were going to feast.
I'm a Steelers fan, so for reference let's look at guys like TJ Watt and Cam Heyward. Arguably two of the best in the NFL. They are on the sidelines repeatedly getting rest.
Browns rest Garrett as well.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
Squatchy, I should have made myself more clear.
I was talking about the DL only. We just don't have the quality DT depth to rest Williams and Hamilton without giving up yardage to the offense.
I mean you can have an opinion, but the numbers say otherwise:
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2024/10/149820/snap-c...
Even if they didn't play "well" against lesser opponents, you can't expect your starters to play well for 4 straight quarters (and they don't, as we've seen repeatedly) because they'll be exhausted. Even if it's just for a few plays you absolutely have to put backups into the rotation.
Also, if you're afraid to give up yardage earlier in the game so you don't sub out your starters, but then you give up loads of yardage and force zero punts in the 4th quarter when the game really matters, maybe you should look at your priorities. I'd gladly sacrifice 3-4 plays of yardage in the 2nd and/or 3rd quarter so our best players can actually have an impact in the 4th quarter.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Agreed. At some point Day has to solve the Knowles/LJ differences.
But, but, but there are supposed experts on here that when one says this we are told to go sit in the corner and let the grownups talk and the lack of rotation is fine. We are told the starters need the reps.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
Preach, brother, Preach.
Should have been aware of them coming into the season, yet we saw it again Saturday. Will there be consequences now?
I never would have imagined this. It is indeed unbelievable, and truly depressing at the same time. Just wow.
that's a helluva stat and an eye brow raiser for sure. Can't get off the dang field and now it's triggering me from the trauma of watching these defenses in the fourth quarter not be able to get a stop
You’d think by accident a team would fumble or throw a pick to OSU because, football, but they don’t even get a turnover when they desperately need one. Probably goes back to the fact they get no pressure on the QB late in the games
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
"Probably goes back to the fact they get no pressure on the QB late in the games."
That's THE biggest issue in my eyes and I discuss it below. OSU has, on paper at least, an excellent DL but they just don't seem to have the 1 or 2 game changers you need and late in the game everybody seems wiped. Rotation would help but honestly I think we are also missing a Chase Young/Bosa type guy that is unguardable 1 on 1. Obviously those guys don't grow on trees but I hope the staff prioritizes seeking out the difference makers in recruiting and via the portal.
"In weightlifting, I don't think sudden, uncontrolled urination should automatically disqualify you."
-Jack Handey
A coach is suppose to develop, prepare, and scheme. A decent coach can scheme up pressure. You don't need to have a Myles Garrett type defensive end in order to generate QB pressure.
Madaris
Word around Columbus is ‘we’re a second half team’
The numbers don’t lie. OSU has been much better in second halves of games. This game though, they played to a stalemate in the second half. Should have gone for two on one of those touchdowns. That’s not me with hindsight. I. Was literally screaming at the tv when I see them line d up for PAT
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Same but was not surprised. Day is inept at clock management and knowing when to go for two, it's truly astounding.
Rill Dill - That happens when the opposition is not equivalent talentwise regarding both the 1st team and subs. The opponents can't substitute because the 2nd team talent is a dropoff from their starters and the starters show a performance dropoff late in the 3th and throughout the 4th quarter. There have been a couple of close games at half time this season, but we score almost at will in the 2nd half. That's why some people consider us a 2nd half team. It's not totally us, it's a dropoff in the competition in the 2nd half, In my opinion. Less talented teams just can't compete in the second half. But those stats that started this thread, to me, show that either we don't substitute correctly, or we don't have the depth to compete, I believe it is primarily the substitution philosophy.
I love the game!
I feel the same way. Under previous coaches, i felt fairly comfortable that we would get the defense stops in the 4th. Now, i just chew my fingernails down to nothing, then gets so disappointed in the final result.
I agree with everything you said.
Chicago Fish
'90
My brick by the stadium has my name and "Woody Forever". Let me know if you see it/
It’s so demoralizing. Just not OSU Silver Bullet football. Something has to change.
You win with people.
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9 Units Strong!
I'd like to know where Lou Holtz is right now!
2 of the 4 are different. Would this be as big of a story for 2 games?
I think not forcing a punt in the 4th quarter of talent equated games is a big story. A definite trend. It’s nice to hold a team to an FG, but it feels like doom in these games when the defense can’t get off the field and always surrenders points.
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
I'd like to know where Lou Holtz is right now!
That wasn’t my question
I think it would still be a big story. Anything more than one game suggests something troubling is occurring against top opponents in the 4th quarter. I think it was already big after the first two TCUN losses but blowing the lead against Georgia and not being able to stop Oregon at all make it a bigger deal.
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
I'd like to know where Lou Holtz is right now!
Fair enough. The only reason I disagree is once you remove the asterisk games, it’s one in 2022 and one in 2024. That’s not really a trend.
Yeah, the cheating affects it. Good point.
It's just also a vibe, man. Like, I just don't feel confident in our d to do anything in the 4th Quarter to get a stop. I've never felt that way as an OSU fan in 25 years.
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
I'd like to know where Lou Holtz is right now!
Now THAT is an honest discussion worth having. The other stuff, I’ll pass .
It's weird to just get that sinking feeling and watch good teams milk the clock. No pash rush. No turnovers. No explosive defensive plays. No punts.
To your point, maybe the cheating affected their mentality.
Maybe they feel hopeless or anxious or something themselves. Is there a lack of belief or confidence?
The Silver Bullets used to strike fear into people. Demoralize them. I just don't feel that against good teams.
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
I'd like to know where Lou Holtz is right now!
When it all comes together, it’s wonderful. 2019 was that but it didn’t end with a NC either. 2014 was a gritty defense and 2001 was similar. Both statistically paled in comparison to 2019 tho. I’m hoping (that’s all I can do) that this defense finds that grittiness. We have the talent to do that. I just think Oregon had one hell of a good offensive game plan. Hats off to them for that. They played a different style than expected and caught us a little off guard. Can’t let that happen again tho.
I posted this in a different thread. The 2019 defense was made to look pretty ordinary the last three games of the season against TTUN, Wisconsin and Clemson, giving up over 400 yards a game and over 6 yards a play over that stretch.
I feel like so many people just remembers how dominant they were through the first 11 games and forget how they faded down the stretch.
Knowles has been nothing but an expensive way to blow national championships. Been out on him since that UGA game, his calls in the fourth quarter of that game were absurd. Ransom on their fastest WR with no help and a two score lead...somehow not getting pressure but also not playing coverage behind it, what a concept!
You’re absolutely correct with this view. Played zone the entire third quarter if I remember correctly and pretty much shut georgia down and then inexplicably does what he did in the 4th quarter. Time and score Jim. Force Georgia to burn clock even if they score and we win. I guess 75 yards in one play was his idea of burning clock. Im beginning to think this guy was a 2 million dollar mistake.
Tim Weaver
Then when we needed a stop against TUN last year, soft zone for a seven minute drive down the field. He is so bad at selecting when to be aggressive and not and not even good at being aggressive when he does.
Truer words was never more spoken then right there!!!
Artthedart
It wasn't soft zone on the biggest 3rd down when their TE came off the line and threw the OSU defender to the ground and caught a 3 yard pass... but that's only OPI when it's JJ Smith. When Michigan does it, it's just hard nosed physicality.
You don't have to begin to think it. He was -- and is in the absence of a total turnaround over the next 6 or 7 weeks.
I don't really count 2022 vs TTUN. All the others are damning (hate to curse but it is fitting). The coaches and players have to figure it out. No excuses. Tired of hearing that it was a really good game, and we lost because of a bad call.
How firm thy friendship
Yes goddammit George swear
I don’t know what to put here
It seems that we are very conservative on defense late in close games against top teams. Playing a soft cover keep everything in front of you makes sense in some situations but I think we’re doing it too soon and too often. It’s a “let’s not get beaten” strategy vs a “let’s trust our players and beat them” strategy.
In Knowles first season in Columbus he got aggressive in those cases and got burned but it was because we didn’t have the talent and experience we do now on the defensive side. I think he and Day over-reacted to that first season’s experience and they’re now too conservative on D in those close games.
I think they’ll figure it out after that Oregon loss
A good perspective. Let’s hope they figure it out.
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
I'd like to know where Lou Holtz is right now!
Perfectly said! It's psychological at this point on both sides of the ball. I believe that Day, the coaching staff, and the players do not want to screw it up and disappoint the fans so they play safe in the top 5 games. They call plays on offense that they can't possibly screw up and they don't take a lot of chances with motion, misdirection, sweeps, etc. On defense, they don't want to get burned on a deep pass or the QB taking off, so they play a bend but don't break style to keep everything in front of them. This leads to less blitzing, less exotic coverages, and players being tentative rather than reading their keys, diagnosing the play and just attacking the ball. This even goes to special teams. OSU does not block punts anymore or even try to and the return game is basically non-existent. OSU needs to treat ranked teams like they do non-ranked teams. Focus on blocking, tackling, and the fundamentals, but trust your athletes to make plays in the open field. Trust your secondary to cover well enough for a blitz to get home, mix up your personnel packages, call plays that opponents have not seen on film, etc. Also, don't let the defense dictate when you use your best players. Get the ball to Jeremiah on sweeps, reverses, screen passes, etc. Get the ball to Judkins and Henderson on speed option pitches, off tackle runs, on wheel and rail routes. Don't play carelessly, but don't be afraid to make mistakes or turn the ball over on offense and it's not the end of the world if the defense gives up a big play. Burke could have benefitted from a series off to look at the plays on the previous drive, figure out what's going on and make adjustments. This defense will improve when they worry less about giving up the big play and more about just attacking the ball and pressuring the QB.
Yeah, I feel that on offense against Oregon. All those creative run plays and different screens we were using this season, as well as better RPOs and what did we get?
+ Bubble screens (GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR)
+ DUO, Boundary stretch run plays
+ Lots of classic dropbacks (TBF, Howard did great at this).
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
I'd like to know where Lou Holtz is right now!
Good examples. Even the wing T formation that they ran worked. They ran the same play twice out of that formation. Why not come back to that formation later in the game and fake a handoff to Judkins and run a QB keeper. You could also fake the handoff to Judkins, and have Henderson come on the backside to set up an option pitch, or you could do that and have a tight end leak out on an out route.
Wow. I hadn’t been as down about these big game losses as many here, but these stats are making me see things in a darker light. I’d be really curious to see the coaches reactions if presented. I know we wouldn’t get a straight answer but i dont think one could even coach speak around these.
We gave up 54 points and scored 16. I wish I hadnt read this post. Pretty much sums up the fact that days teams have had trouble finishing the biggest games ND last year as the outlier.
Tim Weaver
When you force a DC to adjust his defensive philosophy because your DL coach doesn’t want to play that scheme, what is the expectation at that point?
Knowles has to make tweaks to his system because Johnson doesn’t like it. If this truly is the case, send one of them packing.
It’s ultimately Day’s responsibility. If he indeed brought in Knowles and is allowing this (rift between Knowles and LJ) to happen, we have serious issues on our hands and the only way to fix it is with a complete overhaul of coaches from the head man himself all the way down to the lowest paid coach.
My point is you don’t bring in a defensive coordinator and handicap him by not allowing him to bring in his own guys. If, and this is a big if, this supposed rift between philosophies between Knowles and Johnson has been going on for awhile, Knowles is responsible to correct it, ultimately, Day is responsible for it to get corrected. Going on two years of it is unacceptable and is hurting the team.
The entire staff are choke artist in games against equal talent and until they're all gone nothing will change..
GO BUCKS
Knowles defenses have surrendered 32.3 points per game in top 10 matches since his arrival. And that Missouri game really drags this number down.
Fraudbaugh
To be fair, his defense is the only thing that made the Missouri game competitive.
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
It's crazy how we give up more points to better teams.
Yeah it's expected but 30 plus explains the record.
Fraudbaugh
Give up all the points they want to. But make sure in your last drive there are no fuckups. That puts too much pressure on the offense to be perfect. This isn’t Friday night lights. They can’t be perfect
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I'm responding specifically to yet another cherry-picked statistic.
It's actually a fact that's the average the defense allows in games that matter
Fraudbaugh
Someone else can explain to you the meaning of "cherry-picked statistic."
Or they can explain to you shutting out Akron or Western won't win you a trophy
Fraudbaugh
You think we should be shutting out teams like Oregon and Georgia?
Pretty wild to think since that 2016 defense, we've really only had one good year (2019 with Hafley). Schiano, Coombs, Knowles. I guess the bright spot is Knowles isn't giving up 55 to Iowa and 49 to Purdue?
What, are you trying to be an Irish R&B singer??
According to Biddle on yesterday's BM5 the defense doesn't practice tackling. Not at all. So yeah, there's going to be problems on defense. Tackling is the foundation of defense and we don't practice it.
This's damn near a fireable offense if you ask me.
That's pretty obvious watching them whiff and dive at legs over and over again.
Didn't Knowles recently say something about how it's something you can't practice live? I was confused about that. I mean, surely they tackle when they scrimmage, right?
"In weightlifting, I don't think sudden, uncontrolled urination should automatically disqualify you."
-Jack Handey
My assumption is they don't do it weekly in season, excluding bye weeks or bowl practice. Wish they would do it more, but OSU has also been snakebitten with injuries.
We are way too concerned about players getting hurt in practice. If other top teams can do and not end up with major injuries surely we can as well.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
This season specifically it does seem like the D does better in the second half, which is refreshing. We held Oregon to 10 in the second half, which honestly is tough to complain about against a prolific offense (and on the road no less), but all of those were in the 4th quarter, which is interesting.
I don't know what the answers are- is it lack of confidence coming from the top? Is it lack of rotation leading to exhaustion (especially on the DL) at the end of games? Is the play-calling too conservative? I don't know, but I hope Knowles and Day take a hard look and make it a point of emphasis.
On the bright side, this OSU offense is really good, especially in the red zone and were it not for a number of things (Judkins turnover, onside kick, OPI on Smith etc), the Bucks would've won. I think we beat them in a rematch no problem.
I'll add, and I type this somewhat reluctantly, that some of OSU's defensive issues are personnel related and not on Knowles. Don't get me wrong- Sawyer, JT, Hamilton and Tyleik are all very good and some of the backups too (like Curry). But I'm not sure I would describe any of them as game changers, at least not against excellent OL's. Late in games, you want your DL's to have worn down opposing OL's, not the other way around, which seems to be what's happening to us. It's really hard for any defense to get big stops if you're not winning the LOS. We are gonna lose A LOT of DL's after this season and I hope that the staff is able to land a stud or two from the portal because we are probably gonna need it.
"In weightlifting, I don't think sudden, uncontrolled urination should automatically disqualify you."
-Jack Handey
I think we're all coming to the realization that a lot of the defensive stars that returned have maxed out their ability. That's not a terrible thing, but it means they need to be executing at a very high level to make up for the lack of game changing ability. They've been far too inconsistent.
As for a rematch, I hope you're right. The loss of Simmons is a huge setback. With him I could've seen the offense becoming dominant, but without him they have no true OTs and could regress in some areas. He was one of the players they couldn't lose.
Out of all the arguments I have seen against Day/Knowles, this this by far the most condemning. While the totality of these numbers are misleading with it being proven that Michigan cheated in AT LEAST 2022, the fouth quarter struggles are very real under day. Even removing the 2022 Michigan game, which I believe is fair, we have been outscored 33-13 over those other three games. Allowing 7 straight big game scoring drives on defense is the most unacceptable stat I've ever heard, and frankly, Knowles should probably lose his job over it.
Scoring only 13 points in those 7 drives is also an indictment, but it's also reasonable to understand that the defense has been putting an unfair amount of pressure on the offense in big games, and it isn't like the offense is completely turtling and going 3 and out. Out of those seven drives, we scored points on three of the four drives that weren't end-of-game, two-minute-drill-style drives. Then of the three two-minute drill drives, the offense responded by moving the ball 43, 44, and 49 yards respectively, and put us in position to win the game. The fact that we didn't win any of them is still gross, and legitimate complaints can be made about Day's inability to put 7's on the board in big games instead of 3's, but I can't honestly look at any of these games and blame the offense when the defense has looked as incompetent it has.
Username checks out
"In weightlifting, I don't think sudden, uncontrolled urination should automatically disqualify you."
-Jack Handey
I have been a Knowles defender but that stat is genuinely terrible. Beyond giving up points, the D not getting off the field is keeping the offense from having more chances and more time. The offense had 4 second half possessions vs Oregon - it's hard to score if you don't have the ball.
Agree that playing safe is not working. And it plays into the hands of good-not-great offensive teams, since they can dink and dunk their way down the field in the 4th quarter. It was a stroke of luck that Oregon bogged down and didn't get in the end zone when they missed an open WR.
Been saying this all year and getting downvoted. The defense bends way too much and lets too much time come off the clock. Letting Akron drive for 8 and a half mins in the FIRST quarter this year was extremely telling for me. And yet when I pointed it out people acted like I was crazy
I don’t know what to put here
Landis should stick to his specialty, bad takes about the OL. Remember, he didn’t think Simmons would be a good LT. As it turns out, he was a really good LT.
Are you saying you disagree with the stats he presented?
When 2 of the games come with an asterisk *. I don’t dispute the numbers, I dispute the validity of the “facts”. I know where you stand on that tho
Ok, tell me how I feel about the defense, since you already know.
And so you are aware: Michigan cheating and our D playing terribly in 4th quarters in talent-equated games can both be true.
If you want to talk about the non cheater games, I’ll do that all day long. Once you put cheater game stats in there to prove a point, no bueno!
Ok, then it's ok for the board to discuss the two games that you approve of, where our defense has forced zero punts in our only top 5 matchups under Day/Knowles?
Exactly. 2 games 2 years apart. Let’s discuss
Two important games. That might not be a trend but it is getting into the not good territory. Once can be excused, twice needs a closer look. There will be another ranked opponent away from the show coming up. Let’s see how they handle Happy Valley. If we are going by Franklin’s incompetence, that is t going to really calm things down about Day/Knowles/LJ defensive dilemmas
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Damn straight it needs looked at closer. I’ll say this tho, how you defend Georgia will be different than how you defend Oregon, so you won’t hear me say that there’s one single thing that will fix the issue. Each one is its own puzzle to solve. More aggressive might win a game but it might cost us the win against another team. Not an easy fix but still fixable. Nebraska is the next test even if it’s not a top 5 game but it’ll help propel them into PSU.
it's almost like the head coach might be the problem....
I felt very certain when Oregon got inside our 20 late in the game that they were going to score. At least a FG but at least 50% they would get a TD.
I said to some friends at the time when there was about 2:30 seconds left that we should just let Oregon score a TD. I felt more confident in our offense's ability to score a TD with 2:30 seconds left, 3 timeouts plus the 2 minute warning then I did in our ability to stop Oregon and prevent them from going ahead.
We will never know for certain but I still think we win that game if Oregon scored a TD with more than 2 minutes to go since I don't think they would have stopped us when we had essentially 4 timeouts. We had been moving the ball well all game.
I guess it comes down to what you had more confidence in, us scoring a TD with > 2 minutes left and what amounts to 4 timeouts or our ability to (1) stop them from scoring a TD (2) stopping them from getting a FG and (3) being able for us to score with about 60-90 seconds and potentially no timeouts or 1 timeout?
I just had way more confidence in our offense that game then I did in our defense.
Was saying the same the whole drive, just let them score, we moved the ball every drive of the game and only mistakes stopped TDs.
Yeah, that's pretty awful. Even worse than I remember it being in those situations.
We can't stop here; this is bat country...
I guess so but one also has to remember against good teams in a close game in the 4th quarter are also going to be calling out all the stops. You would still expect some stoppage but giving up a FG to me is not particularly bad in those sorts of things.
Against Oregon, Oregon could have punched it in and then the game is pretty much over.
I am not saying that these are wrong at all or that there are not issues but I think an expectation that you get stops all the top time against top teams. Look at other such games, if they are back and forth things than there is alot that goes into it. The defense for sure, but other teams have the same issues. If you watch college football, outside of blowouts, it is not uncommon for the team that is down to make a play late in the game.
It sucks but it is one of those things. The issue to me is not so much the 4th quarter, although it is highlighted, but not getting stops at other times. Letting conversions on 3rd and long or not making plays, whatever that looks like.
Too much doom and gloom here.
Same thought - let them score. Don't waste the TO's when you know they will score. Give the offense, our best group, time to win the game.
Not sure why Day or Kelly didn't recognize this. Frustrating - should not have lost that game.
bagger
Then again, if Day had decided to let them score and the Bucks failed to score on the last drive, this place would be going ballistic calling it the most inept decision they have ever seen.
BubbaGumps
My biggest gripe is why not go for the two pointer earlier in the game? Then when the Ducks kick on their last drive, it only ties it up
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
That's 100% true Bubbag but you can't coach a game based on that. If you lose you're going to get ripped either way by some of the fans and media so just do what you think you need to do to win the game.
We'll never know if letting them score once Oregon got into the red zone was the right play or not. I tend to think it was but I understand the opposing arguments too.
I think not only would we have won if we gave the offense the ball with 3 timeouts plus the 2 minute warning but that it would have been a great teaching and motivational thing for this team. Day could have properly ripped the D and defensive staff in the locker room by saying, "we had no choice since we just couldn't count on you to get the stop. You have to be better. Win your match-ups and then get us off the damn field" and then said "I had total faith in the offense being able to execute the plays, win their match-ups and win this game. Everyone on defense, you have 2 weeks before our next game. I expect you to work a hell of a lot harder and to not lose any match-ups versus our offense in these coming 2 weeks. You let us down this game but you're capable of much more. Prove it"
To me, if you cannot stop a team in the 4th quarter in big games you have not earned your contract renewed. Buh-bye.
Silver lining is that the FG % is increasing! Woohoo!! Let them score but slightly less. Baby steps.
If this defense could just string together 2 consecutive stops (or even just one) in the 4th quarter, that record against top 5 teams would be changed.
Say what you want about the offense but they put up enough points to beat Georgia and Oregon. Probably Michigan also. They just don't get consecutive stops in the 4th quarter by the defense.
Stay gold, Ponyboy.
Consecutive stops lol. How about a single fourth quarter stop. Knowles is a small school hack. Hire someone with NFL experience.
It is crazy to think that in most of the top 5 match ups they just needed 1 stop in the 4th quarter. They probably would have had 1 national title and at least 1 of those wins over Michigan.
Stay gold, Ponyboy.
Didn't even need a stop against UGA, just not a one play 75 yard drive. Knowles dialed up our strong safety on an island against their faster WR and one of his "blitzes", after another seemingly big game standard special teams blunder on the blown fake punt the play before.
They got two consecutive stops in the third quarter. Had Howard not fumbled and the offense goes up 2 scores it would have been a tough time for Oregon to comeback. They themselves would be searching for a stop they couldn't get in the second half.
Now i become Boob Salsa, grifter of men.
Very true. The dropped snap on 3rd down was a killer.
Stay gold, Ponyboy.
Had Trey not reverted to 2022-2023 form and tried to bounce outside when he already had a clear shot at the first down, we're likely looking at a different result, too.
This team often seems snake bit at the worst times. They've got to get mentally tougher in those moments.
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
I'd like to know where Lou Holtz is right now!
100% agree. Thought the same thing in the moment.
Now i become Boob Salsa, grifter of men.
The drop snap did hurt a lot. I chalk that up to the crowd noise/away environment. He was not ready for the ball. Not an excuse. Just an observation.
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
I'd like to know where Lou Holtz is right now!
I think he just took his eyes off the ball trying to see what the Oregon back 7 was doing. I don't think that was an early snap.
Now i become Boob Salsa, grifter of men.
So with just 1 stop in the 4th quarter we would have beat Georgia we would have beat Ttun in 23 we would have beat Oregon. If our defense would have just had the failure rate of the offense in the 4th qtr we would have won 3 of those games. But knock yourself out thinking that Knowles is the guy (never believed he was and will never be convinced he is). Yep blame it on substitutions. I guess the only way to really know is check the substitution patterns of the teams we played to see if they are “more rested”. So how in the hell does Kentucky hold Georgia to 13 this year and Ole Miss (at Ole Miss) to 17. And just held Vandy to 20 after they put up 40 on Bama. I guess there players are more rested! Yeah right! I would say whoever is coordinating there defense knows a hell of a lot more then Jim Knowles. Because they sure haven’t recruited the talent that OSU has…. Gimme a break!
Artthedart
In those games, being outscored 54-16 in the 4th quarter? That’s some John Cooper level shit right there
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
While these stats aren't good, they are also a bit cherry picked. We have been in 4Q games against PSU and ND the past couple of years where the defense made some big stops.
Do you believe that PSU or ND the last two year had the talent level of OSU, Oregon, Bama etc? I do think PSU has had dangerous teams the last couple of years but not the offensive prowess of the big dogs.
How firm thy friendship
Probably not, but they were at least as good as UM on offense.
We have been saying this but everyone just wants to keep their rose colored glasses on. Knowles has to go. Not only zero 4th quarter stops but look up the yards and points allowed when playing top 10 teams. He has no feel for the game. His defenses continue to give up back breaking plays.
Go Buckeyes!
Did Day hire him on a three year contract? If so this is it for Knowles. If they finish the season on a good note and the defense redeems itself and the team runs the table, I think you retain him. I don’t like the odds of that happening but it’s still a possibility
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Those numbers are alarming. What's even more frustrating is that most of those drives were slow, grinding, and agonizing.
Just curious, if they got rid of Knowles, who is the best defensive coordinator out there?
Go get Vrabel or the lions D coordinator
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Do you remember when we NEVER counted out a Tressel-coached team, a team that was mentally tough, a team that would end Heisman campaigns for opposing players and not begin them????
Colossians 3:23
Vrabel is never coming here as a D Coordinator. The guys was a fairly successful NFL head coach. If the wheels come off this team, my $$ would be on Vrabel to be the next coach of the Buckeyes (but I honestly have no clue his desire for that job. He may only want to be an NFL guy from now on with the transfer portal, etc..).
I've been concerned for some time that Day's best team was his very first team and they COMPLETELY spit the bit against Clemson once they had that lead. They should have won that damn game. (I'm not sure what LSU / Burrow would have done against that squad though..).
If the Buckeyes don't sweep the rest of the regular season and make the Big 10 Title Game, the OSU administration is going to have a decision to make. If they drop another Big 10 game and miss out on the playoffs, Day may be unemployed in January.
Just look at what Caleb Downs did in a Saban defense and look at him here. He is clearly all over the field and one of the best defenders in the country but he is always making the stops. He is so busy making up for everyone else he isn’t free to be a ball hawk like he was at Alabama. It’s time for an NFL style defense.
Go Buckeyes!
"He is always making the stops"
Just what do you think a guy with 100+ tackles at Bama was doing? "Not making the stops while leading the team in tackles?"
P.S. Bama lost to Michigan last year too, and Michigan played like crap with special teams and turnovers.
2022
michigan - 530 yards and 45 points
Georgia - 533 yards and 42 points
2023
Michigan - 338 yards and 30 points
Missouri - 331 yards and 14 points
2024
Oregon - 496 yards and 32 points
Zero 4th quarter stops in these games
Go Buckeyes!
Outside two of the Michigan games Day has no one to blame but himself. The team is snakebit. Come on. What are they?? The Browns for crying out loud? He’s got more talent than all but maybe six or seven teams in the country. His offense shit the bed in the cotton bowl last year. Don’t give me this “the game didn’t matter” shit. You telling all of those guys who wore scarlet and gray and suited up that the game didn’t matter? Missouri seemed to think it mattered.
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
The longer this goes, the more fault I give Day.
I find it impossible to believe Knowles suddenly can't coach football. We have athletes everywhere. It all comes back to us getting no pressure, no sacks in big games and that leaves our defensive backs chasing guys for 5 seconds or more.
It's Larry Johnson, you won't convince he's not the problem... it's not recruiting, it's not coaching, it's how he manages game day, like it's a 2005 big ten game..
And that's on Coach Day..
Go Bucks!!!!
This. Consistent Defensive line rotation has been a staple at OSU ever since FSU dismantled the 97 team with their 8+ deep DL rotation.
People have forgotten how weird it has been to only play 4 dudes 50-60+ plays - this was NOT the case under Urban Meyer or even Day 2019-2020. This LJ vs Knowles smoke has been here since he was hired, and it was mentioned on THE Podcast this morning by Landis.
There is a disconnect between the two, and if you need more evidence than the "Cover 0 Simulated Pressure drop 9" I don't know what would convince you.
Chiefs aren't all that dominant but they seem built to win close ones with Mahomes, Kelce, Butker and Chris Jones. Not saying Buckeyes should have guys that good but it's interesting to watch them. Very difficult to outlast in Q4.
You hit right st the point. The softness isn't physical, it's mental, and it comes from Day and the soft coaches he's prone to hiring and not firing until it's too late.
You hit right st the point. The softness isn't physical, it's mental, and it comes from Day and the soft coaches he's prone to hiring and not firing until it's too late.
Did I make it through this entire thread and nobody pointed out it's missing ND 2022. They were in the top 5. Now sure, overrated, I get it. But intentionally omitting a game from and already cherry picked data set seems pretty disingenuous to me.
That said, the trend in the 4 games that really mattered is quite alarming, and Knowles and Day both need to look themselves in the mirror and ask why it's happening and what they could do to fix it.
ND was not top 5 in that game.
2 v 5… that’s a top give game.
Now i become Boob Salsa, grifter of men.
A game is "top 5" when it supports your narrative according to most on this site.
If we beat #3 Penn State on the road this year, I guarantee you many on this site will discount it.
some will some won’t. It might go back to the fact that a lot of OSU fans take beating them for granted. Which I don’t but there is a considerable amount that do, because James Franklin. Plus that’s a conference game so I think there are a lot of people who are looking at Day’s bowl and playoff record as not good. There’s nothing wrong with pointing it out. It’s not good. Still a lot of season left so we are anticipating that they hash out their differences on defense and right the ship to the ‘ship
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I agree the overall trend isnt good and I have my doubts about him. But I also think Day has had a really weird mix of mistakes and some real bad luck. Like if we all agree that Michigan ran a 3 year cheating scheme for a competitive advantage, then how do you count those losses against him?
As far as my comment goes - people tend to use numbers to support their narrative which is peculiar in this case because rankings are inherently subjective. There’s hardly much difference between a #5 team and an 8th ranked team for example. Rankings are just a general guide and they should be looked at that way.
Like do I think Penn State is the 3rd best team in the country? No. But I do think they’re somewhere around a top 10 squad and beating them at home isnt easy. So if Day pulls it off, he should get credit for it. Top 5, Top 10 - eh, not much difference.
That doesnt mean I dont have real concerns about him. I definitely do. But he has shown growth over these 6 years that lead me to believe he can get it done. He’s not Lincoln Riley.
Agree with everything, doubly agree with the last sentence.
For example if he makes the CFP final and loses the next 2 years he’ll most likely have a .500 record (without removing the Michigan cheating wins either) against top 5 teams and people will still complain he’s soft, not a killer, not a big game coach ect.
Now i become Boob Salsa, grifter of men.
Thank you, this is my point. We complain about this with SEC/rankings bias all the time, but we apparently do it to ourselves as a fanbase too. If we beat a top 5 ND/Penn St or whoever may find their way into that criteria at the moment, it gets discounted because we exposed them and they weren't that good. And if we had came out and flexed on Oregon and played the clean game we expected and won by a couple scores, the narrative would be much the same. Well, Oregon's not that good this year.
Bottom line, ND was inarguably ranked #5 for that 2022 game, and I am pretty sure we shut them out / won the 4th quarter that night. You can't pull stats like these and intentionally omit a game that meets the criteria. You have to include it, point out that ND wasn't truly a top 5 team, and say even with them in there, the numbers don't look good. But that's not what was done here, and it annoys me.
Woof, just listened to his new podcast. In summary, there have been 11 drives on offense/defense in big game fourth quarters...we have only scored on TD on offense...and only forced one stop on defense out of those 11. No wonder we are all mental disasters, that is unreal level of winning time incompetence.