Good read and confirms a lot of what has been rumored (although none of us really know what’s going on behind closed doors). The only thing is - Ryan Day has shown an amazing willingness to make changes, so I don’t think the hurt feelings angle is necessarily true. I just hope if this is truly what’s holding this defense back in these big games then Day made the change before getting on the flight home…
2 five stars on the edge and we are near the bottom in sacks the last three years...its got to be a scheme issue.
I watched Chase Young wreck entire offenses by himself, Bosa boys as well. But not this D...its a bend don't break keep everything in front conservative D... whether it's Knowles or LJ.
"Tough times don't last, tough people do" - Gregory Peck
Or they were overrated in recruiting and/or there is a development problem. I tend to think it’s development because Zach Harrison was also a 5 star that never reached his potential.
Qujo - The problem as I see it there is a disconnect between Knowles and Johnson. The reluctance (stubbornness) of Johnson to utilize five (5) DL and only play four (4) DL is mind boggling. Johnson helps bring in a lot of DL talent and he has developed them. He must start developing them based on the scheme the Head DC implements.
Or, Ryan Day needs to sit these men down and state bluntly - "Larry - Jim is the DC and this his defense to run and scheme - you are part of the solution or part of the problem. " Something has to change - Someone said above Ryan is not afraid to make changes - Well... sometimes the change (although very difficult) needs to be made.
GO BUCKEYES!!!!
"To have a great life simply follow this rule: Do not bring undue conflict into your life..."
I am not sure expecting such highly talented players all the time is a real answer. It could be a scheme thing but it is also true that teams can avoid sacks with quick drop backs. And lesser teams do that against OSU.
Better teams have been able to block the line and OSU for whatever reason does not get home when they rarely blitz. That was true even when Young played. He was much quieter against the better teams.
But that is the point. At Oklahoma State, Knowles was a blitzer. He ran an attacking defense. The Oregon game plan was the opposite of that. The one time they attacked with a Styles blitz, it was effective.
It's 3 years now and we haven't seen any changes on the defense between johnson and Knowles. So why do we think day is all of a sudden gonna demand it?
Message boards and public outcry is what got Parker Fleming fired after Ryan Day kept him around and extended him for no good reason. If we the fans make it untenable like we did with Fleming, Day will make a move. Day has shown that he values personal relationships more than winning. That means we have to do his job for him
Well, Coach Day if you're reading this, keep doing what you're doing. Running a good program that represents this university well is much more important than winning.
Full scale scheme won’t happen however they can tighten up assignments and fully commit to an identity. Defense isn’t cohesive and playing as one.
Having the bye week now might give them the opportunity to prepare Curry/Matthews/Reese etc as a way to shake things up and maybe inject some life into the defense.
Also (coincidentally after an Oregon loss they should have won) back in 2021 Day did make the to strip play calling duties from Coombs. The defense got a little better but the point is he does have precedent to make a big in season change when necessary. He can demand the defense do more along the dline.
Holy shit! Ward has been accused of being a mouth piece for Ohio State football and I agreed. This is a huge 180.
This isn’t news though. LJ was down right condescending two off seasons ago about the Jack position and yea, the star studded defensive line doesn’t perform like one.
Yes. Birm has always spoke his mind and I love him for it. I mean Ward has always seemed like the reporter that tows the company line and never rocks the boat. That’s why I was surprised that he wrote something so critical of the coaches; specifically LJ. From my POV LJ seems to be the coach that doesn’t get touched with negative reporting.
I’ll admit this is tin foil hat territory but did someone encourage him to write this? Like I said it’s never been his MO. I’ll say again, 100% tin foil hat conspiracy theory.
Ward didn't write this article. He and Birm have been talking about LJ and Knowles not being on the same page for the last year plus, though. That was why the big rumor in the offseason was that Day was trying to convince Jason Taylor to join the staff.
Man. When you play a team loaded with NFL players on offense. A 6th year QB who is extremely mobile and accurate. Who will probably break every passing record in college history. WR's with NFL speed. A great offensive line. A couple of very good RB's. A speedy future NFL TE. And do all of this on the road in half a night game? Giving up 32 points isn't some red alert. It's normal playoff level football. Lot of bounces went Oregons way to get that 32. Howard's dropped snap. 3 consecutive false starts. Judkins fumble inside our own red zone. The free possession on the onside kick. We actually made some critical stops inside the redzone. You don't scrap what Knowles has built because you gave up 32 on the road to the #2 team. Just relax man.
Bullets will be back to save the season, and Stroud's dignity.
The defense got thoroughly exposed, that was supposed to be the better unit. You're talking about 10 draft eligible guys on that defense plus Caleb Downs. The entire DL has been on a milk carton for most of the season and were exposed last night. Denzel Burke was supposed to be our #1 lockdown corner and I've never seen someone's draft stock tank so much in one game as I did last night with him. Oregon's offense has talent sure, they don't have more talent than Ohio State's defense does and that's alarming. 500 yards given up, 10 yards per pass, 5 yards per rush, near 50% 3rd down conversion rate, zero sacks, zero turnovers. I saw a stat somewhere that said in the 32 games Knowles has coached at OSU, 15 of those games there have been zero turnovers forced... that is trash.
Do you think we won't be playing those kinds of teams in the playoffs?
I think a lot of us are upset because we see the writing on the wall. This is the best roster we could assemble and it's still not enough. If not now, when?
I partially agree with you but looking forward, we have to generate some pass rush to beat playoff teams. What do you think Ewers will do to us if he has all day to throw?
Oregon schemed to remove an LB from the inside and forced the corners to play man, two fluke plays changed the outcome so let's not get all verklempt. JT makes the right read on that last TD and the result of the game may have changed. Ransom takes way too many risks and is not a factor in coverage very often. Losing Simmons is huge and we will see how the Oline coach responds.
The Penn St TE is going to create real havoc with the back 7. Watch yesterday's game for them and then watch T Kelce. By contrast Gee had a good game yesterday, this lack of use of the TE is an achilles heel for the Kelly, Day offense.
Knowles should of never been forced to take on the previous coordinators staff. LJ is set in his ways and it really don't mesh with what Knowles wants to do.
So where has it been rumored that Knowles and Johnson have been "feuding" and what does the feuding entail? Is this just internet blather or are there some facts to go with it?
I can't imagine that Knowles isn't OK with the way the D-line isn't integrated into the overall scheme. I agree that we need more pressure on the opposing QB but that isn't the reason Denzel was having trouble. Of course pressure & sacks are the antidote to a hot QB but their receivers were wide open and that wasn't the fault of the D-line.
So where has it been rumored that Knowles and Johnson have been "feuding" and what does the feuding entail? Is this just internet blather or are there some facts to go with it?
It’s been talked around by pretty much all of the insiders at one point or another over the last couple of years. No facts, nor would I ever expect there to be facts made public. As far as what it entails the supposition is that LJ doesn’t want to give up his 4 lineman set, and possibly some of the players in his room, to allow for the jack position that is integral to what Knowles actually wants to run on defense.
Comes from the beat writers’ asses. There is literally not evidence of it. In 2022 we ran the scheme Knowles ran at Ok State and it was a big play machine. And not in the good way. The problem with the defense isn’t scheme. It’s that the dline got zero pressure in 4 man pressures. No scheme is successful when you have to start blitzing 5 or 6 to create pressure
2 sacks in 5 games is damning, as is Ryan Day's record in games that matter. Nothing will change. If we cant out-talent people, we probably aren't winning. Harsh but im just basing it on historical fact.
I will have a lot more faith that we can win a rematch - or any playoff game - if I see them showing more new wrinkles to Raiola. He's a freshman, a very different situation than Gabriel, but you should be able to confuse him, apply pressure, etc. If that game isn't used as an opportunity to test out some new wrinkles, I'll just assume we're going to lose the next postseason game.
On the offensive side of the ball, we see the playbook growing each week. It's not impossible.
We don't have great depth at DT. We should move to the Jack position going forward.
JTT and Sawyer are both big enough to move inside if needed. If we have 3 DL positions, our depth would get much better.
It is silly to let Johnson dictate what kind of defensive front that we run. Knowles is known for the Jack position and it generated a lot of sacks at the other OSU.
Since our DEs aren't shutting off the QB run and sometimes losing containment, I say just get after the QB instead of pretending to contain the QB.
This is a more social commentary than anything else. In general with the majority of people, I don't want them working much past 65-67 years old. There is a point of diminishing returns.
The boomer generation is full of people who want to work until they die at their job.
Larry needs to go just based on his age. I have never really been a fan of the guy because of the allegations of racism he used in recruiting when he was at Penn State. I bite my tongue a lot because he's one of our coaches.
The comment about boomers is spot on. A lot of them floated up the chain and wedged themselves in there and companies have to work around them and their reduced outputs rather than replace them with better performing employees. I’ve got one at my company and he spends most of his time working on things that have nothing to do with his job and “forgetting” to do his actual job. So I get paid to do his job and my job for about 35% less pay than him.
It's sad that an 80+ year-old is still capable of doing his job and loves it so much and is so fulfilled by it that he wants to keep doing it, as opposed to sitting on the couch and slowly melting into the seat cushions watching one brain-deadening TV show after another like most retirees do? Shit, you better wish you're as capable (or even alive) as this guy is when you hit 80.
Maybe I'm wrong but I'm going to say that you're retired or close to retirement age. Unless you're directly working with someone old it's hard to say one way or another. It's like living with a older family member that has dementia. Only you really notice the daily decline.
In my job, it's a government position that specialized. All the top people have 40 plus years working. Are going to retire with 100% of their pay at $200k+.
They could all retire today and do side work or consulting and make more money than they are making now.
There is a point in life where you have to pass off to the next generation. And leave a better product than you inherited yourself. Boomers are the only generation that will live better than their parents and their kids because the majority of them are selfish. Doing a double Hulk Hogan pose fingerpoint at a hollow real estate portfolio as a measurement of success.
Ok, maybe this is a shocker for you, but most people would love to retire and not work forever. This guy also passed up on a very generous voluntary severance package earlier this year, which many lifers took. It's sad that he has no interest in pursuing other valid enriching activities outside of the company (family, hobbies, travel, volunteering, etc.) that plenty of retirees dedicate their time towards without having to worry about income.
Larry needs to go just based on his age. I have never really been a fan of the guy because of the allegations of racism he used in recruiting when he was at Penn State.
We have been hearing this story for the last couple years and it is way overdue to fix this. Day needs to correct it this week or he shouldn't be the head coach anymore. If he isn't man enough to tell LJ to step aside or he is gone, then Day is the softest coach in football. Throwing away another year due to this is unacceptable.
Personally I think this is LJ's last year anyway. Stuck around until the end of JT and Sawyer's time. Given they can expand coaching staffs, he might hang around the program to help out but I think he will be done as the full-time DL coach.
According to my football coaches organizational chart, a DC has the responsibility for the entire defense which includes the DL. If the DL coach in hindering the team from being as successful as possible, he must either change his philosophy to agree with what the DC wants, or he must be let go.
No way NIL donors are happy. Day is at the crossroads because the money talks. No way millions continue to roll in getting beat in the biggest games. Nobody is giving to see the Buckeyes thump Western Michigan. The money is to get you over the hill in these top match ups and donors aren't getting their moneys worth.
It's THE JACK's fault, There is that phantom position again. The fantasy player JACK.
Gene Ross again the 25 yr old Football Expert, go read some more of his stories , sure he states the obvious and he should leave it there because he tries to explain why and he is clueless about what is going on with in the program. A totally speculation article with hear say sources. Gene is clueless.
Well THIS is the year or was supposed to be the year for a solid run at the NC. Next year won't be pretty with losing a large amount of experience. However, the returning bunch better get it together now or else this season will be another "should have could have would have".
What… you aren’t looking forward to the possibility of a rematch with Missouri in a NY6 with half of OSU’s roster opting out and Missouri at full speed again? Or Tennessee? Day’s best case scenario is for his team to overcome this defensive dysfunction and just outscore everyone on offense. Which is going to be a Herculean task now that Simmons is out for the season. The offense is going to have to come up with some trick or gimmick plays at some point. We haven’t seen it in five years so I don’t expect to see it this year. But to gain an advantage on teams with equal talent he’s going to have to break tendencies.
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
One change that wouldn't be hard is to rotate Caden Curry into the game more. Good things seem to happen when he is in.
I am in agreement that Knowles should have complete control over the D. Eff LJ.
On Kings of Columbus Doug suggested that Knowles sometimes out thinks himself. If you guys don't listen to that podcast (Wednesday &Sunday versions focus 100% on the Bucks. The Kings of the North covers teams & games I don't really care much about..
One change that wouldn't be hard is to rotate Caden Curry into the game more. Good things seem to happen when he is in.
I am in agreement that Knowles should have complete control over the D. Eff LJ.
On Kings of Columbus Doug suggested that Knowles sometimes out thinks himself. If you guys don't listen to that podcast (Wednesday &Sunday versions focus 100% on the Bucks. The Kings of the North covers teams & games I don't really care much about..
On rare occasions we run stunts or twists. So I know we practice them. This would not be something new. We need to use them more. The guy that can't be mentioned here had a great clip showing Curry looping around JT to take the outside and JT, without the need to protect the edge, put on a world-class spin move on his blocker who barely touched him. The only reason JT didn't get a sack is because the oline guy stuck out his foot and tripped him - which of course the refs missed.
Another thing I'd like to see us do is shift the dline right or left just before the snap like some teams do.
On a related topic, are people comfortable with us running a 4-2 as our base defense? How much does that scheme contribute to our less than stellar linebacker play? Is it putting too much on our linebackers in terms of territory to cover and responsibilities?
How much of that 4-2 scheme is driving us to not run many twists and stunts on the D line since Knowles and / or LJ are concerned that it will create too many gaps and voids in the defensive front and having just 2 LB’rs to cover those voids/gaps.
I honestly don’t know the answers to those questions but I generally prefer a base 4-3 unless it’s an obvious passing situation.
I think Knowles very successfully ran that 4-2 at Oklahoma State but the Big 12 at that time was a heavily pass dominated league and that D fits a conference like that much more than it does the B1G IMO
These things go in cycles. I think that the late 70’s Dallas Cowboys ran a 4-2-5 “Flex Defense”. Then a few years later teams were running “smash mouth” power offenses and teams had huge “thumper” 250 lb middle linebackers and 4-3 sets. Then 5 years after that it was back to lots of passing and a migration to speed and lots of 3-4 defenses.
Something isn't sitting right with me on this alleged Larry Johnson, Jim Knowles Rift.
Let's say it exists. Larry Johnson wants to rush with only four down linemen, and Knowles wants to blitz more. That's what is being alleged, correct?
If so, that doesn't connect for me. Rushing with 4 and dropping seven is a defensive strategy-especially teams that run a lot of C2 and C3, or 2 Man. Its a part of a larger wholistic defensive strategy. Some teams want to blitz you and speed up clocks, some want to keep guys back and get to you with 4, some want to mix it up. Pick your scheme.
Why does it matter to Larry Johnson how pressure is generated? Jim Knowles is the architect and play caller of the defense. How this team's D operates is up to him not Larry. So for those of you that think this is the problem, or part of it, please explain to me how this is actually happening or how you think its manifesting in practice and on gameday. What is being implied is that Larry Johnson calls the defense, or at least defines the entire strategy. Simply saying "he wants to rush with 4" isn't cutting it for me based on everything I know about DLC's relationships with DC's. In the same vein, can't the secondary coach say he wants to play more man? Can't JL say he wants to run out 3 LB. The entire thing is falling apart and frankly, I don't think it exists.
Larry Johnson Doesn't recruit hybrid guys or try to develop them. There is no reason with guys like Hicks, Melton, Reese, even Sonny to try a package out. Heck JL was the main recruiter for the 5* from cincy that committed to Bama.
It makes zero sense. Once you start to apply any critical thought to the claim it instantly falls apart. The front 4 & back 7 have to work together. Coverages are built off what the front is doing or vice versa. It is literally impossible to make a good defense where the front 4 is doing whatever they want. This is just peddled by people who don’t understand football and/or are upset Knowles isn’t running his Ok State 4-2/3-3 hybrid and just wanna blame someone for it.
Birm's sources generally are Pantoni, Pantoni's staff, & Day. So unless somehow the recruiting staff knows about scheme issues I don't know where Birm would be getting that information from
Do you ever wonder why talents like Baron Browning and CJ Hicks aren't allowed to lineup on the edge while in an OSU uniform? If you are aren't one of LJ's guys, you aren't getting snaps at DE.
The article by Gene Ross sounds speculative, but there may be a lot of truth in there.
This is what we do know:
1. Knowles tried installing the Jack position in 2022 [link].
2. Johnson was not a big fan of his DEs splitting time between two positions but he was not opposed to someone else playing that position [link].
3. Here is Johnson saying that the Jack position could be filled by an LB [link].
From the link above here is Johnson's quote that you may find interesting:
That’s long-term. I can say that right now, yes I would like to see (Sawyer’s full development at DE) happen,” Johnson said, later adding: “It can come from the linebacker position, that’s what I’m saying, it’s hard to say exactly what is going to happen right now because we haven’t sat down and said, ‘Here’s what we’re gonna do.’ But it doesn’t have to be from the defensive end position, it could come from the linebacker position
4. Here is Johnson (somewhat mockingly) saying "I know no idea what the Jack position is--could be a LB--who knows" [video link].
5. There were also rumors that Johnson and Knowles have different philosophies about rotation, but in 2023 Knowles appeared to completely delegate the DL rotation to Johnson [link].
I think, at best, Johnson and Knowles have not been on the same page in terms of player development and rotation.
Johnson has no problem with the Jack as long as it comes from the back 7, which entirely defeats the purpose of the Jack position.
Johnson wants his four spots and wants to be the sole dictator of who is in those spots at any given time.
This makes things difficult because Knowles may want to send a blitz assuming the Ty’s are inside eating up blockers but Johnson wants to go rushmen and instead you end up getting a hat on a hat up front and no pressure. Or Knowles may want to drop 7 and let the front 4 get a rush but Johnson sends in two big DTs and leaves his speed rushers off the field.
the defense is disjointed and it’s because Larry Johnson wants to act like a child.
Larry wants it to be an LB type because it has to be. The Jack is asked to do a tone of LB things that require the athletic traits of an LB. Your second paragraph is just made nonsense. Position coaches don’t have carte blanche on what players or what front is on the field. The coordinator does. There is never a time when the rushman is on the field because Larry has gone rogue. It’s just pants on head stupid to believe that
At some point the scheme doesn't matter, players have to make plays. You think it mattered what the playcall was when Chase Young or Joey/Nick Bosa lined up? I get that everyone has a responsibility within a play call but at some point during the game we need JT or Sawyer to wreck a play and get to the QB and it hasn't happened consistently over the last several years.
The only legitimate adjustment we can make is disguising coverages a little bit more and sending more pressure, which ultimately exposes our slow cover corners in coverage even more...
After the 5,000th time you ask Sawyer or JT to be Young/Bosas and they can’t do it, it becomes a schematic issue. They aren’t that type of DE. If you’re scheming them to be that type of DE then yes, the scheme is the problem.
we have other DEs that seem capable of speed rushing but Larry Johnson doesn’t like taking JT or Sawyer off of the field in the situations when we need a Curry or a Melton.
Larry Johnson would rather lose his way than win someone else’s way.
If you look at 7:41, there is a drop 8-to-drop 9 coverage....w/ no safety help???? Five guys are playing the crossing route and/or Spying the QB. This is ugly football.
The QB has all the time in the world b/c they only sent 2. There's a simple single coverage and a yes/no read. They could help Burke out. The coverage is the worst of both worlds. Usually, single coverage like that happens b/c you blitz a lot of guys.
You have a two million dollar DC. I have never been a part of any program at any level where the DC did not have final say on what defense will be run and how the scheme will be taught. I find it hard to believe that Larry Johnson is being an insubordinate and not teaching Knowles scheme. I can remember one blitz in Sats game on 3rd down when OSU made a stop becasue Gabriel couldn’t sit there and pick the secondary apart. Other times I would see pressures where they brought linebackers and dropped D Lineman. This defense does not attack. The Jack position has never really developed and I am not sure if Knowles is even trying to use it anymore. Don’t forget that Knowles came out of the Big 12 and good defense there was giving up 400 yards and.30 points.
The bottom line is Knowles is the DC and Day is top dog. If there is any internal strife occuring, it is Days job to make job responsibilities crystal clear.
Here's a nice breakdown of just one of the defensive failures Saturday... rushing 2 (TWO?!) And still in man? pic.twitter.com/6hYTQ5Yvkb
— Buckeye Empire (@BuckeyeEmpire) October 14, 2024
They dropped all those damn DL into coverage over the middle of the field and still didn’t send any safety help over the top. Just maddening shit. Unbelievably incompetent.
That is clearly a bust/miscommunication. Don’t know why yall are acting like that was some schemed up thing. There are literally zero defenses that only rush two and drop all 4 lineman.
Here's a good thread on that play. Basically, the DL kind of screwed up by dropping too quickly so the free runner couldn't get home. Which makes me wonder about how often some of our other blitzes don't get there.
Im seeing complaints again about design all over my timeline. And I get the feeling most casual fans dont understand that coaches are very rarely just drawing up things in the dirt and running it out there. This is a fairly common call across college football https://t.co/2rHFNMCTZZ
— Space Coyote (@SpaceCoyoteBDS) October 14, 2024
After having plenty of evidence Oregon would throw deep from earlier in this game, this call by Knowles is even more maddening then. Oregon had already broken tendencies, what makes you think they are going to revert back?
Watching this continual “locked-in” approach by the D is head scratching and frustrating. As in most things, adapt or die. If Day, Knowles, and Co. don’t adapt soon, they’ll become extinct sooner than later.
Because that's literally what teams do. They'll break tendencies for a few plays in hope of hitting a big play but coaches almost always revert back to their normal play calling tendences.
It was clear as day Stewart and Tez were faster than Burke, hell any sort of scouting would show Stewart has track speed without a refined route tree. It is foolish to think Oregon wouldn’t keep attacking vertically if Ohio State showed zero indication they would adjust.
Hence the off coverage ding dong. By showing off coverage you're making the offense adjust to quick passes. Which plays right into the dropping dlineman.
dong. By showing off coverage you're making the offense adjust to quick passes. Which plays right into the dropping dlineman.
sounds great in theory. But in reality, you get a bunch of speedy RBs or Receivers catching short passes and dodging big slow defensive linemen for huge chunk plays
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I mean there simply has to be a change to something. When was the last time this defense got a big time stop or turnover in the 4th quarter of a top 5 game?
I seen Sawyer drop into coverage at least twice including (5:40)
(2:23) No safety help. Oregon is deep in their own territory. This is effectively a Cover 0. The safety in the boundary is not going to be able to help out
I also saw Jack drop into coverage a few times. I was figuring that they thought the inside receiver was going to run a slant and they wanted him in that passing lane. It's not the worst tactic in the world though I would prefer they have a LB'r or DB try to slide over there to try and jump the slant route. Just seems like a better use of personnel in terms of what they are best suited for (Sawyer rushing the QB and the LB'r or DB being quicker with a better chance of intercepting a pass in that situation).
You can make a logical case for either approach though. Maybe Knowles saw something in prior film and thought there was something to exploit with Jack in coverage?
I just made some observations. Knowles is trying to confuse the Olinemen. There is nothing wrong w/ dropping a DE into coverage. Many people have done it for years.
The problem with that is the lbs we have right now starting are horrible in coverage and it shows a lot with how teams easily can throw over the middle against us
No, and just for the reason this excellent article highlights. He's a weak coach whose letting an old man past his prime dictate how HIS boss, the DC runs the defense. Even of he shows Larry the door after a other disappointing bowl loss, the issue is him.
Knowles is in year 3. Does anything look different? Truth is he’s a small program coach. No shame in that. He works well at a Duke or an Oklahoma state. He’s one of the three highest paid assistant coaches in college football. Another lame duck hire from the head coach.
Knowles was the assistant of the year right before coming to Ohio State. No idea what happened, but I know they don’t get pressure consistently. Whoever is the problem needs to be put in their place by the head coach. This is a make or break year for Day (my opinion)
While I think that our defense is not what it once was...there has to be a reason. I'm not a big Knowles fan, BUT you can't tell me that he's forgot everything he knows about defense. There has to be another reason. What is the one thing that has remained static during his brief time at tOSU....LJ! Maybe there is some truth in what is said about not giving Knowles full control of the defense and letting LJ have his say.
If you're expecting Jack and JT to magically play like superstars, you're gonna be disappointed. They are what they are. They're not elite edge rushers. JT still doesn't have the discipline to set the edge on the zone read, he keeps getting sucked in. Larry was not able to weaponize them and fully develop them into 1st round picks. We can't create pressure or sack the QB, which doesn't help our chances of creating turnovers. Knowles always gets embarrassed by good to great offenses with dynamic athletes. We have upperclassmen and seniors all over the place on this defense. Knowles has been here 3 years. If I was Walt, I would've vomited on the sidelines watching Denzel get obliterated. There's no excuses.
I don't believe anything that comes from that site, PERIOD. I have heard this repeatedly and I don't buy it. They may have different concepts but Larry Johnson didn't tell Jom Knowles to drop two defensive linemen into coverage with the linebackers and safeties only to leave our CBs alone on islands with their fastest players.
We don't create pressure because Knowles has cooked up this scheme to prevent being burned deep. Well, guess what, we are getting burned deep. We were better than Oregon. They just exploited what they knew Jim Knowles was going to do. We effed up. We were out schemed. PERIOD.
Undercoverbuck makes a good point (that also happened following an Oregon loss
Also (coincidentally after an Oregon loss they should have won) back in 2021 Day did make the <decision> to strip play calling duties from Coombs. The defense got a little better but the point is he does have precedent to make a big in season change when necessary. He can demand the defense do more along the dline.
I would be surprised to see any wholesale changes to the overall defensive scheme, but with the bye-week it does give them an opportunity to insert some new wrinkles and begin to move in a different direction!
"College football cannot be explained by science or religion, which is why it remains perfect." ~ Ramzy Nasrallah
In the last 5 big game L's we've taken, we have forced ZERO punts in the 4th quarter. None. That's insane for the talent we recruit.
Knowles making over $2 million a year for that kind of performance is maddening. When you can't get off the field on 3rd down, you lose games.
What's crazy is that Oregon actually left points out on the field. The missed FG and the muffed PAT snap.
But then, what if Lathan actually went the distance on that interception return on that muffed PAT snap? We didn't block well enough there. That would've been two points to make it 9-6. Just when you think these close losses don't get any more heartbreaking.
That might as well be a tabloid of reactionary opinions article. It is sort of the views of the angriest part of the fanbase and pumping those rumors and opinions. There is reason to be annoyed, but not sure what one would do. The scheme OSU is playing should be good in the pass. Is it the players, they are usually pretty good but you are not fixing that during the season. Not sure what you do there when your guys get beat.
There could be more variety in presentation for the fronts, but OSU has not done that for ages and you are not going to install a new defense mid season on the fly unless things are pretty bad. Losing to the 3rd rank team by one point on the road is not really a reason to throw everything out the window either. They were a play away from winning that or running away with it.
It is also true that Oregon played a good game. Their QB made some really good passes and the WRs made some good catches. OSU's defense should have played better with TFL and so on but if you are thinking they should have shut them down than folks are being silly.
Better watch out LGHL is going to be thrown in with the "omg another Dave Biddle" crowd. There's smoke in most of the beat writing circles that JK and LJ do not agree on scheme/philosophy and that because of recruiting LJ has won the battle so far.
You can see Day calling for the rushmen meaning, LJ isn't making that call, but neither is Jim. Hmm.. I wonder why?
Just imagine if Larry Johnson were held to the same standard that the board wants Justin Frye held to... ONE SACK in 5 games against Oregon and Michigan since 2021. ONE from his unit. He isn't getting it done and should be held accountable just like every other position coach is.
We as fans will probably never know if there is actually a problem between JK and LJ. What I do know is the DL, outside of JT single handedly wrecking Penn St one game, hasn't gotten pressure on opposing QBs since 2019, when the talent is close to OSUs. This is another year of a talented roster wasted. I will assume the defense will continue to do exactly what they have done for 3 years until I see something change.
According to PFF, Gabriel was pressured on 40% of his dropbacks. Our scheme was pressuring him, even though it didn't result in sacks. It was essentially Burke who destroyed our chances at a win.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
This number is useless if you can never get home. They can measure it however you want but there were maybe 2-3 plays where Gabriel ever looked uncomfortable.
I don't know the exact definition of "pressured" that PFF uses. But a commonly cited metric is the performance of a QB under pressure vs not. It's possible Gabriel just had a great game under pressure because our DBs (Denzel Burkes) were having a bad game.
It's not useless at all because QBs are much worse under pressure overall compared to no pressure.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Curry seems to be able to get to the qb better than the rest. Why not play the guys who gets home more often. I don`t see a Young or Bosa on this team and assume there isn`t one on the team or he would be playing. Go Bucks.
I don’t think think there needs to be some whole sale change of scheme. It’s simply about executing better. I would also say to unleash the d line. Just from my observation they rushed very scared I assume because of Gabriel threat to run. Also 90% of the people on this site don’t even know what osu runs for defense. It may surprise people but we did actually run somewhat exotic blitzes to try and confuse Gabriel. The problem is that they were not excuted very well but never the less it was mixed in.
At what point would you change the scheme? Because Knowles can't get a stop in the second half of a top 5 game. So either the players are not good enough, or the scheme is not working. At this point, I think it is fair to say it is both until proven otherwise.
Pressure forces the QB out of his comfort zone. You want ints. get pressure on the QB. Doesn't have to be a sack but make him hurry through his reads, it leads to mistakes.
So frustrating to watch, somehow they didn't get pressure but also weren't playing coverage behind not blitzing. Felt absurd to watch. QB was like 175lbs and required a hop step to throw deep ball and we didn't hit him once or even disrupt any timing.
Frighteningly, this was Knowles best BIG game performance so far at OSU (UGA and TUN games were all worse). I would have rather just let them score on one play on the last drive than drain five minutes off the clock. He is so poor at selecting when to be aggressive. I asked the question if he was actually good at his job pre-season and you all told me I was insane, yet here we are again. Haven't held a competent offense under 30 points in his tenure, no sacks in big games, one turnover created in big games.
In my mind it is time to move to a 3-3 Mint. It's just asking a lot for DE to get home when the ball is out so quickly. I think the 3-3 mint gives you a ton of flexibility on where to send pressure and keep the offense guessing. You could play a Jack on obvious running downs and a rover on obvious passing downs.
100000% agree! Even though this will never come close to real life, I can say on NCAA 25 running the 3-3-5 Mint defense can be lights out and get plenty of pressure on the QB on Blitzs if setup correctly.
the team cant get to the QB with 4, also cant get to the QB if they send 6. their blitz concepts are horrible. so either the coaches arent coaching them properly, or they are allowing players to do it incorrectly. in the end, it has looked the same for 3 years under knowles. nothing is going to change.
If there is hope that the defense won't be a liability down the stretch against good teams, then some changes better be on the horizon, because you show up at a neutral site to play Texas with that defense and you're cooked, you're giving up 50 points.
IDK what they can do schematically, do they overhaul the entire thing mid-season? Not sure you can do that, but if the DEs don't get some kind of a consistent pass rush going in these games there is no hope for a conference title, let alone a natty.
The Excellence of Execution, the Best there is, the Best there was, the Best there ever will be!
Change the scheme lmao! They’ve had three years to figure it and against equal talent, they get blown up. You have a defensive coordinator and defensive line coach that can’t seem to get on the same page and you have a head coach that doesn’t seem interested in fixing the problem.
Scheme...no way in hell. Even if they wanted to and started on Sunday morning, the chances of making significant scheme changes in a week (after three years getting to the one they had) are between slim and none...and both those left town.
At absolute best, they will decide to do more blitzing or a slightly different mix of existing coverages.
Scheme...no way in hell. Even if they wanted to and started on Sunday morning, the chances of making significant scheme changes in a week (after three years getting to the one they had) are between slim and none...and both those left town.
At absolute best, they will decide to do more blitzing or a slightly different mix of existing coverages.
At some point we just have to acknowledge that you are what you are. It's not an aberration, it's just a trend for at least 3 years or even longer. Our D-line does not get sacks. I don't know if it's the scheme or that they're not developed or that they're told to rush a certain way (to contain only), but they aren't getting sacks, which means they aren't getting big time pressure or turnovers. That means against bad or mid teams, you will consistently win because you force them to drive the entire field and they'll make a mistake along the way. Against teams of equal talent, they will torch you. That's why we can't beat a team with equal talent. And I don't think it's going to get fixed, it is what it is.
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Good read and confirms a lot of what has been rumored (although none of us really know what’s going on behind closed doors). The only thing is - Ryan Day has shown an amazing willingness to make changes, so I don’t think the hurt feelings angle is necessarily true. I just hope if this is truly what’s holding this defense back in these big games then Day made the change before getting on the flight home…
Nope. Nothing will change. I base that off the fact the defensive line has not gotten consistent pressure for 3 years, that ain’t changing
Ditto...
2 five stars on the edge and we are near the bottom in sacks the last three years...its got to be a scheme issue.
I watched Chase Young wreck entire offenses by himself, Bosa boys as well. But not this D...its a bend don't break keep everything in front conservative D... whether it's Knowles or LJ.
"Tough times don't last, tough people do" - Gregory Peck
Or they were overrated in recruiting and/or there is a development problem. I tend to think it’s development because Zach Harrison was also a 5 star that never reached his potential.
TBDBFIT
It's not the players. We didn't just whiff on 5-6 5 star recruits. There is no way.
We can't stop here; this is bat country...
It was a problem in 2020 and 2021 before Knowles showed up. So there is a common denominator.
TBDBFIT
This is correct.
Qujo - The problem as I see it there is a disconnect between Knowles and Johnson. The reluctance (stubbornness) of Johnson to utilize five (5) DL and only play four (4) DL is mind boggling. Johnson helps bring in a lot of DL talent and he has developed them. He must start developing them based on the scheme the Head DC implements.
Or, Ryan Day needs to sit these men down and state bluntly - "Larry - Jim is the DC and this his defense to run and scheme - you are part of the solution or part of the problem. " Something has to change - Someone said above Ryan is not afraid to make changes - Well... sometimes the change (although very difficult) needs to be made.
GO BUCKEYES!!!!
"To have a great life simply follow this rule: Do not bring undue conflict into your life..."
Charlie Baker - OSU - 1986
I am not sure expecting such highly talented players all the time is a real answer. It could be a scheme thing but it is also true that teams can avoid sacks with quick drop backs. And lesser teams do that against OSU.
Better teams have been able to block the line and OSU for whatever reason does not get home when they rarely blitz. That was true even when Young played. He was much quieter against the better teams.
But that is the point. At Oklahoma State, Knowles was a blitzer. He ran an attacking defense. The Oregon game plan was the opposite of that. The one time they attacked with a Styles blitz, it was effective.
It's 3 years now and we haven't seen any changes on the defense between johnson and Knowles. So why do we think day is all of a sudden gonna demand it?
Because Buckeye fans do nothing but cope and make excuses.
We can't stop here; this is bat country...
we are fans and have no other recourse
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 1 Corinthians 9:24
What else are we supposed to do, walk into Ryan Day's office and demand change?? You're on a message board dude
Message boards and public outcry is what got Parker Fleming fired after Ryan Day kept him around and extended him for no good reason. If we the fans make it untenable like we did with Fleming, Day will make a move. Day has shown that he values personal relationships more than winning. That means we have to do his job for him
Well, Coach Day if you're reading this, keep doing what you're doing. Running a good program that represents this university well is much more important than winning.
Why stick up for him and deflect on a message board?
Full scale scheme won’t happen however they can tighten up assignments and fully commit to an identity. Defense isn’t cohesive and playing as one.
Having the bye week now might give them the opportunity to prepare Curry/Matthews/Reese etc as a way to shake things up and maybe inject some life into the defense.
Also (coincidentally after an Oregon loss they should have won) back in 2021 Day did make the to strip play calling duties from Coombs. The defense got a little better but the point is he does have precedent to make a big in season change when necessary. He can demand the defense do more along the dline.
Now i become Boob Salsa, grifter of men.
Holy shit! Ward has been accused of being a mouth piece for Ohio State football and I agreed. This is a huge 180.
This isn’t news though. LJ was down right condescending two off seasons ago about the Jack position and yea, the star studded defensive line doesn’t perform like one.
ROLL BUCKEYES!
Actually, Birm is the one who has talked about the defensive coaches not coaching in unison.
Yes. Birm has always spoke his mind and I love him for it. I mean Ward has always seemed like the reporter that tows the company line and never rocks the boat. That’s why I was surprised that he wrote something so critical of the coaches; specifically LJ. From my POV LJ seems to be the coach that doesn’t get touched with negative reporting.
I’ll admit this is tin foil hat territory but did someone encourage him to write this? Like I said it’s never been his MO. I’ll say again, 100% tin foil hat conspiracy theory.
ROLL BUCKEYES!
Ward didn't write this article. He and Birm have been talking about LJ and Knowles not being on the same page for the last year plus, though. That was why the big rumor in the offseason was that Day was trying to convince Jason Taylor to join the staff.
Ward didn't write the article. It was written by Gene Ross of Land Grant Holy Land.
Ward writes for Rivals.
Edit: Hanawi_ beat me to it.
Wow. Let’s let the season play out. But they aren’t wrong right now
Read my entire screen name....
Man. When you play a team loaded with NFL players on offense. A 6th year QB who is extremely mobile and accurate. Who will probably break every passing record in college history. WR's with NFL speed. A great offensive line. A couple of very good RB's. A speedy future NFL TE. And do all of this on the road in half a night game? Giving up 32 points isn't some red alert. It's normal playoff level football. Lot of bounces went Oregons way to get that 32. Howard's dropped snap. 3 consecutive false starts. Judkins fumble inside our own red zone. The free possession on the onside kick. We actually made some critical stops inside the redzone. You don't scrap what Knowles has built because you gave up 32 on the road to the #2 team. Just relax man.
Bullets will be back to save the season, and Stroud's dignity.
The defense got thoroughly exposed, that was supposed to be the better unit. You're talking about 10 draft eligible guys on that defense plus Caleb Downs. The entire DL has been on a milk carton for most of the season and were exposed last night. Denzel Burke was supposed to be our #1 lockdown corner and I've never seen someone's draft stock tank so much in one game as I did last night with him. Oregon's offense has talent sure, they don't have more talent than Ohio State's defense does and that's alarming. 500 yards given up, 10 yards per pass, 5 yards per rush, near 50% 3rd down conversion rate, zero sacks, zero turnovers. I saw a stat somewhere that said in the 32 games Knowles has coached at OSU, 15 of those games there have been zero turnovers forced... that is trash.
"It's just a football game" - Kyle McCord
If anything Oregon left some points on the field. You cannot give up 500 yards and expect to win.
Do you think we won't be playing those kinds of teams in the playoffs?
I think a lot of us are upset because we see the writing on the wall. This is the best roster we could assemble and it's still not enough. If not now, when?
I partially agree with you but looking forward, we have to generate some pass rush to beat playoff teams. What do you think Ewers will do to us if he has all day to throw?
This is pure cope.
Very resaonable SB32
Oregon schemed to remove an LB from the inside and forced the corners to play man, two fluke plays changed the outcome so let's not get all verklempt. JT makes the right read on that last TD and the result of the game may have changed. Ransom takes way too many risks and is not a factor in coverage very often. Losing Simmons is huge and we will see how the Oline coach responds.
The Penn St TE is going to create real havoc with the back 7. Watch yesterday's game for them and then watch T Kelce. By contrast Gee had a good game yesterday, this lack of use of the TE is an achilles heel for the Kelly, Day offense.
t s blue
Knowles should of never been forced to take on the previous coordinators staff. LJ is set in his ways and it really don't mesh with what Knowles wants to do.
Fraudbaugh
So where has it been rumored that Knowles and Johnson have been "feuding" and what does the feuding entail? Is this just internet blather or are there some facts to go with it?
I can't imagine that Knowles isn't OK with the way the D-line isn't integrated into the overall scheme. I agree that we need more pressure on the opposing QB but that isn't the reason Denzel was having trouble. Of course pressure & sacks are the antidote to a hot QB but their receivers were wide open and that wasn't the fault of the D-line.
Screw the Blue (and that gawd-awful yellow)
It’s been talked around by pretty much all of the insiders at one point or another over the last couple of years. No facts, nor would I ever expect there to be facts made public. As far as what it entails the supposition is that LJ doesn’t want to give up his 4 lineman set, and possibly some of the players in his room, to allow for the jack position that is integral to what Knowles actually wants to run on defense.
It always seems impossible until it’s done
Comes from the beat writers’ asses. There is literally not evidence of it. In 2022 we ran the scheme Knowles ran at Ok State and it was a big play machine. And not in the good way. The problem with the defense isn’t scheme. It’s that the dline got zero pressure in 4 man pressures. No scheme is successful when you have to start blitzing 5 or 6 to create pressure
The evidence is on the field when we play a top 5 or 10 opponent.
By the standard Oregon’s dline coach and DC must fucking hate each other too
If all of this is true, it’s Day’s fault for bringing in Knowles then handcuffing him to have to keep LJ.
Totally agree if true. Ryan Day needs to tell LJ to allow Knowles to coach the defense his way and if LJ refuses, time to move on.
And if Day doesn’t make them change, Day can go too.
2 sacks in 5 games is damning, as is Ryan Day's record in games that matter. Nothing will change. If we cant out-talent people, we probably aren't winning. Harsh but im just basing it on historical fact.
We can't stop here; this is bat country...
Hi, DV trolls!
We can't stop here; this is bat country...
They aren't trolls. Our fanbase is a mix of extremely low IQ people teaming up with people who don't believe the truth is very nice.
I will have a lot more faith that we can win a rematch - or any playoff game - if I see them showing more new wrinkles to Raiola. He's a freshman, a very different situation than Gabriel, but you should be able to confuse him, apply pressure, etc. If that game isn't used as an opportunity to test out some new wrinkles, I'll just assume we're going to lose the next postseason game.
On the offensive side of the ball, we see the playbook growing each week. It's not impossible.
We don't have great depth at DT. We should move to the Jack position going forward.
JTT and Sawyer are both big enough to move inside if needed. If we have 3 DL positions, our depth would get much better.
It is silly to let Johnson dictate what kind of defensive front that we run. Knowles is known for the Jack position and it generated a lot of sacks at the other OSU.
Since our DEs aren't shutting off the QB run and sometimes losing containment, I say just get after the QB instead of pretending to contain the QB.
This is a more social commentary than anything else. In general with the majority of people, I don't want them working much past 65-67 years old. There is a point of diminishing returns.
The boomer generation is full of people who want to work until they die at their job.
Larry needs to go just based on his age. I have never really been a fan of the guy because of the allegations of racism he used in recruiting when he was at Penn State. I bite my tongue a lot because he's one of our coaches.
The comment about boomers is spot on. A lot of them floated up the chain and wedged themselves in there and companies have to work around them and their reduced outputs rather than replace them with better performing employees. I’ve got one at my company and he spends most of his time working on things that have nothing to do with his job and “forgetting” to do his actual job. So I get paid to do his job and my job for about 35% less pay than him.
There's a 80+ guy at my job who proudly has no plans on retiring, even with a vested pension. It is kind of sad.
wb5
It's sad that an 80+ year-old is still capable of doing his job and loves it so much and is so fulfilled by it that he wants to keep doing it, as opposed to sitting on the couch and slowly melting into the seat cushions watching one brain-deadening TV show after another like most retirees do? Shit, you better wish you're as capable (or even alive) as this guy is when you hit 80.
Maybe I'm wrong but I'm going to say that you're retired or close to retirement age. Unless you're directly working with someone old it's hard to say one way or another. It's like living with a older family member that has dementia. Only you really notice the daily decline.
In my job, it's a government position that specialized. All the top people have 40 plus years working. Are going to retire with 100% of their pay at $200k+.
They could all retire today and do side work or consulting and make more money than they are making now.
There is a point in life where you have to pass off to the next generation. And leave a better product than you inherited yourself. Boomers are the only generation that will live better than their parents and their kids because the majority of them are selfish. Doing a double Hulk Hogan pose fingerpoint at a hollow real estate portfolio as a measurement of success.
Ok, maybe this is a shocker for you, but most people would love to retire and not work forever. This guy also passed up on a very generous voluntary severance package earlier this year, which many lifers took. It's sad that he has no interest in pursuing other valid enriching activities outside of the company (family, hobbies, travel, volunteering, etc.) that plenty of retirees dedicate their time towards without having to worry about income.
wb5
Who said he was capable? The elderly at my work are much slower and make 3-4 times the mistakes everyone else does.
What allegations?
He was using race as a way to negatively recruit against coaches that were not black.
We have been hearing this story for the last couple years and it is way overdue to fix this. Day needs to correct it this week or he shouldn't be the head coach anymore. If he isn't man enough to tell LJ to step aside or he is gone, then Day is the softest coach in football. Throwing away another year due to this is unacceptable.
Personally I think this is LJ's last year anyway. Stuck around until the end of JT and Sawyer's time. Given they can expand coaching staffs, he might hang around the program to help out but I think he will be done as the full-time DL coach.
According to my football coaches organizational chart, a DC has the responsibility for the entire defense which includes the DL. If the DL coach in hindering the team from being as successful as possible, he must either change his philosophy to agree with what the DC wants, or he must be let go.
Especially when we are paying millions of dollars for Knowles scheme.
No way NIL donors are happy. Day is at the crossroads because the money talks. No way millions continue to roll in getting beat in the biggest games. Nobody is giving to see the Buckeyes thump Western Michigan. The money is to get you over the hill in these top match ups and donors aren't getting their moneys worth.
Fraudbaugh
It's THE JACK's fault, There is that phantom position again. The fantasy player JACK.
Gene Ross again the 25 yr old Football Expert, go read some more of his stories , sure he states the obvious and he should leave it there because he tries to explain why and he is clueless about what is going on with in the program. A totally speculation article with hear say sources. Gene is clueless.
Well THIS is the year or was supposed to be the year for a solid run at the NC. Next year won't be pretty with losing a large amount of experience. However, the returning bunch better get it together now or else this season will be another "should have could have would have".
What… you aren’t looking forward to the possibility of a rematch with Missouri in a NY6 with half of OSU’s roster opting out and Missouri at full speed again? Or Tennessee? Day’s best case scenario is for his team to overcome this defensive dysfunction and just outscore everyone on offense. Which is going to be a Herculean task now that Simmons is out for the season. The offense is going to have to come up with some trick or gimmick plays at some point. We haven’t seen it in five years so I don’t expect to see it this year. But to gain an advantage on teams with equal talent he’s going to have to break tendencies.
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
The JACK is not happening this year. It's too late.
You need to read the article about Knowles's Jack position. That position is hard to develop.
They did things like drop 8 and stuff but a true Jack is not happening this year.
Who will you take off the field...JT or Sawyer? Who will play the Jack? Hicks may play it next year
One change that wouldn't be hard is to rotate Caden Curry into the game more. Good things seem to happen when he is in.
I am in agreement that Knowles should have complete control over the D. Eff LJ.
On Kings of Columbus Doug suggested that Knowles sometimes out thinks himself. If you guys don't listen to that podcast (Wednesday &Sunday versions focus 100% on the Bucks. The Kings of the North covers teams & games I don't really care much about..
Bobcat66
I think that Curry is in there more on passing downs and I think that Day insisted that there be some kind of a rushman package.
One change that wouldn't be hard is to rotate Caden Curry into the game more. Good things seem to happen when he is in.
I am in agreement that Knowles should have complete control over the D. Eff LJ.
On Kings of Columbus Doug suggested that Knowles sometimes out thinks himself. If you guys don't listen to that podcast (Wednesday &Sunday versions focus 100% on the Bucks. The Kings of the North covers teams & games I don't really care much about..
Bobcat66
On rare occasions we run stunts or twists. So I know we practice them. This would not be something new. We need to use them more. The guy that can't be mentioned here had a great clip showing Curry looping around JT to take the outside and JT, without the need to protect the edge, put on a world-class spin move on his blocker who barely touched him. The only reason JT didn't get a sack is because the oline guy stuck out his foot and tripped him - which of course the refs missed.
Another thing I'd like to see us do is shift the dline right or left just before the snap like some teams do.
On a related topic, are people comfortable with us running a 4-2 as our base defense? How much does that scheme contribute to our less than stellar linebacker play? Is it putting too much on our linebackers in terms of territory to cover and responsibilities?
How much of that 4-2 scheme is driving us to not run many twists and stunts on the D line since Knowles and / or LJ are concerned that it will create too many gaps and voids in the defensive front and having just 2 LB’rs to cover those voids/gaps.
I honestly don’t know the answers to those questions but I generally prefer a base 4-3 unless it’s an obvious passing situation.
I think Knowles very successfully ran that 4-2 at Oklahoma State but the Big 12 at that time was a heavily pass dominated league and that D fits a conference like that much more than it does the B1G IMO
4-2 & 3-3 mint are the standard now. Anyone saying we should be a 4-3 or 3-4 is 15 years behind modern football.
I’m surprised I’m just 15 years behind!
These things go in cycles. I think that the late 70’s Dallas Cowboys ran a 4-2-5 “Flex Defense”. Then a few years later teams were running “smash mouth” power offenses and teams had huge “thumper” 250 lb middle linebackers and 4-3 sets. Then 5 years after that it was back to lots of passing and a migration to speed and lots of 3-4 defenses.
Something isn't sitting right with me on this alleged Larry Johnson, Jim Knowles Rift.
Let's say it exists. Larry Johnson wants to rush with only four down linemen, and Knowles wants to blitz more. That's what is being alleged, correct?
If so, that doesn't connect for me. Rushing with 4 and dropping seven is a defensive strategy-especially teams that run a lot of C2 and C3, or 2 Man. Its a part of a larger wholistic defensive strategy. Some teams want to blitz you and speed up clocks, some want to keep guys back and get to you with 4, some want to mix it up. Pick your scheme.
Why does it matter to Larry Johnson how pressure is generated? Jim Knowles is the architect and play caller of the defense. How this team's D operates is up to him not Larry. So for those of you that think this is the problem, or part of it, please explain to me how this is actually happening or how you think its manifesting in practice and on gameday. What is being implied is that Larry Johnson calls the defense, or at least defines the entire strategy. Simply saying "he wants to rush with 4" isn't cutting it for me based on everything I know about DLC's relationships with DC's. In the same vein, can't the secondary coach say he wants to play more man? Can't JL say he wants to run out 3 LB. The entire thing is falling apart and frankly, I don't think it exists.
Michigan Cheated
Larry Johnson Doesn't recruit hybrid guys or try to develop them. There is no reason with guys like Hicks, Melton, Reese, even Sonny to try a package out. Heck JL was the main recruiter for the 5* from cincy that committed to Bama.
How firm thy friendship
It makes zero sense. Once you start to apply any critical thought to the claim it instantly falls apart. The front 4 & back 7 have to work together. Coverages are built off what the front is doing or vice versa. It is literally impossible to make a good defense where the front 4 is doing whatever they want. This is just peddled by people who don’t understand football and/or are upset Knowles isn’t running his Ok State 4-2/3-3 hybrid and just wanna blame someone for it.
I think Birm knows something about football and is more plugged in than you
Birm's sources generally are Pantoni, Pantoni's staff, & Day. So unless somehow the recruiting staff knows about scheme issues I don't know where Birm would be getting that information from
Do you ever wonder why talents like Baron Browning and CJ Hicks aren't allowed to lineup on the edge while in an OSU uniform? If you are aren't one of LJ's guys, you aren't getting snaps at DE.
The article by Gene Ross sounds speculative, but there may be a lot of truth in there.
This is what we do know:
1. Knowles tried installing the Jack position in 2022 [link].
2. Johnson was not a big fan of his DEs splitting time between two positions but he was not opposed to someone else playing that position [link].
3. Here is Johnson saying that the Jack position could be filled by an LB [link].
From the link above here is Johnson's quote that you may find interesting:
4. Here is Johnson (somewhat mockingly) saying "I know no idea what the Jack position is--could be a LB--who knows" [video link].
5. There were also rumors that Johnson and Knowles have different philosophies about rotation, but in 2023 Knowles appeared to completely delegate the DL rotation to Johnson [link].
I think, at best, Johnson and Knowles have not been on the same page in terms of player development and rotation.
Johnson has no problem with the Jack as long as it comes from the back 7, which entirely defeats the purpose of the Jack position.
Johnson wants his four spots and wants to be the sole dictator of who is in those spots at any given time.
This makes things difficult because Knowles may want to send a blitz assuming the Ty’s are inside eating up blockers but Johnson wants to go rushmen and instead you end up getting a hat on a hat up front and no pressure. Or Knowles may want to drop 7 and let the front 4 get a rush but Johnson sends in two big DTs and leaves his speed rushers off the field.
the defense is disjointed and it’s because Larry Johnson wants to act like a child.
Larry wants it to be an LB type because it has to be. The Jack is asked to do a tone of LB things that require the athletic traits of an LB. Your second paragraph is just made nonsense. Position coaches don’t have carte blanche on what players or what front is on the field. The coordinator does. There is never a time when the rushman is on the field because Larry has gone rogue. It’s just pants on head stupid to believe that
At some point the scheme doesn't matter, players have to make plays. You think it mattered what the playcall was when Chase Young or Joey/Nick Bosa lined up? I get that everyone has a responsibility within a play call but at some point during the game we need JT or Sawyer to wreck a play and get to the QB and it hasn't happened consistently over the last several years.
The only legitimate adjustment we can make is disguising coverages a little bit more and sending more pressure, which ultimately exposes our slow cover corners in coverage even more...
After the 5,000th time you ask Sawyer or JT to be Young/Bosas and they can’t do it, it becomes a schematic issue. They aren’t that type of DE. If you’re scheming them to be that type of DE then yes, the scheme is the problem.
we have other DEs that seem capable of speed rushing but Larry Johnson doesn’t like taking JT or Sawyer off of the field in the situations when we need a Curry or a Melton.
Larry Johnson would rather lose his way than win someone else’s way.
Larry Johnson would rather lose his way than win someone else’s way.
I think you nailed the issue. Time for Johnson to ride off into the sunset
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
If you look at 7:41, there is a drop 8-to-drop 9 coverage....w/ no safety help???? Five guys are playing the crossing route and/or Spying the QB. This is ugly football.
The QB has all the time in the world b/c they only sent 2. There's a simple single coverage and a yes/no read. They could help Burke out. The coverage is the worst of both worlds. Usually, single coverage like that happens b/c you blitz a lot of guys.
You have a two million dollar DC. I have never been a part of any program at any level where the DC did not have final say on what defense will be run and how the scheme will be taught. I find it hard to believe that Larry Johnson is being an insubordinate and not teaching Knowles scheme. I can remember one blitz in Sats game on 3rd down when OSU made a stop becasue Gabriel couldn’t sit there and pick the secondary apart. Other times I would see pressures where they brought linebackers and dropped D Lineman. This defense does not attack. The Jack position has never really developed and I am not sure if Knowles is even trying to use it anymore. Don’t forget that Knowles came out of the Big 12 and good defense there was giving up 400 yards and.30 points.
The bottom line is Knowles is the DC and Day is top dog. If there is any internal strife occuring, it is Days job to make job responsibilities crystal clear.
CoachesCorner
I’m ready to move on from Knowles, I’ll stop there for now.
It better because what the actual hell is this
This is definitely where I parked my car.
God this is fucking embarrassing how incompetent this makes the defensive coaches look
They dropped all those damn DL into coverage over the middle of the field and still didn’t send any safety help over the top. Just maddening shit. Unbelievably incompetent.
This is definitely where I parked my car.
That is clearly a bust/miscommunication. Don’t know why yall are acting like that was some schemed up thing. There are literally zero defenses that only rush two and drop all 4 lineman.
Then it's a coaching issue... see the problem?
Or it could be a miscommunication.
They technically rushed 6 and drop the ones that are engaged by blockers, but they didn't force the engagement before dropping.
BeTcHa CaNt ThRoW fOr 6 YaRdS oN 3rD & 9!!!!
This and this alone could be the only tape Day reviews with LJ & Knowles for the next 10 hours.
Here's a good thread on that play. Basically, the DL kind of screwed up by dropping too quickly so the free runner couldn't get home. Which makes me wonder about how often some of our other blitzes don't get there.
After having plenty of evidence Oregon would throw deep from earlier in this game, this call by Knowles is even more maddening then. Oregon had already broken tendencies, what makes you think they are going to revert back?
This is definitely where I parked my car.
Watching this continual “locked-in” approach by the D is head scratching and frustrating. As in most things, adapt or die. If Day, Knowles, and Co. don’t adapt soon, they’ll become extinct sooner than later.
Because that's literally what teams do. They'll break tendencies for a few plays in hope of hitting a big play but coaches almost always revert back to their normal play calling tendences.
It was clear as day Stewart and Tez were faster than Burke, hell any sort of scouting would show Stewart has track speed without a refined route tree. It is foolish to think Oregon wouldn’t keep attacking vertically if Ohio State showed zero indication they would adjust.
This is definitely where I parked my car.
Hence the off coverage ding dong. By showing off coverage you're making the offense adjust to quick passes. Which plays right into the dropping dlineman.
sounds great in theory. But in reality, you get a bunch of speedy RBs or Receivers catching short passes and dodging big slow defensive linemen for huge chunk plays
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I mean there simply has to be a change to something. When was the last time this defense got a big time stop or turnover in the 4th quarter of a top 5 game?
How firm thy friendship
Not in the last 4 years.
Curry is playing DT on some passing downs. (5:40)
I seen Sawyer drop into coverage at least twice including (5:40)
(2:23) No safety help. Oregon is deep in their own territory. This is effectively a Cover 0. The safety in the boundary is not going to be able to help out
I also saw Jack drop into coverage a few times. I was figuring that they thought the inside receiver was going to run a slant and they wanted him in that passing lane. It's not the worst tactic in the world though I would prefer they have a LB'r or DB try to slide over there to try and jump the slant route. Just seems like a better use of personnel in terms of what they are best suited for (Sawyer rushing the QB and the LB'r or DB being quicker with a better chance of intercepting a pass in that situation).
You can make a logical case for either approach though. Maybe Knowles saw something in prior film and thought there was something to exploit with Jack in coverage?
I just made some observations. Knowles is trying to confuse the Olinemen. There is nothing wrong w/ dropping a DE into coverage. Many people have done it for years.
Dropping a DL got us a pick 6 against Alabama
The problem with that is the lbs we have right now starting are horrible in coverage and it shows a lot with how teams easily can throw over the middle against us
No, and just for the reason this excellent article highlights. He's a weak coach whose letting an old man past his prime dictate how HIS boss, the DC runs the defense. Even of he shows Larry the door after a other disappointing bowl loss, the issue is him.
Time for Day to put his CEO pants on and tell LJ this is the way its going to be....what you're doing is not working!
Knowles is in year 3. Does anything look different? Truth is he’s a small program coach. No shame in that. He works well at a Duke or an Oklahoma state. He’s one of the three highest paid assistant coaches in college football. Another lame duck hire from the head coach.
Knowles was the assistant of the year right before coming to Ohio State. No idea what happened, but I know they don’t get pressure consistently. Whoever is the problem needs to be put in their place by the head coach. This is a make or break year for Day (my opinion)
While I think that our defense is not what it once was...there has to be a reason. I'm not a big Knowles fan, BUT you can't tell me that he's forgot everything he knows about defense. There has to be another reason. What is the one thing that has remained static during his brief time at tOSU....LJ! Maybe there is some truth in what is said about not giving Knowles full control of the defense and letting LJ have his say.
If you're expecting Jack and JT to magically play like superstars, you're gonna be disappointed. They are what they are. They're not elite edge rushers. JT still doesn't have the discipline to set the edge on the zone read, he keeps getting sucked in. Larry was not able to weaponize them and fully develop them into 1st round picks. We can't create pressure or sack the QB, which doesn't help our chances of creating turnovers. Knowles always gets embarrassed by good to great offenses with dynamic athletes. We have upperclassmen and seniors all over the place on this defense. Knowles has been here 3 years. If I was Walt, I would've vomited on the sidelines watching Denzel get obliterated. There's no excuses.
I don't believe anything that comes from that site, PERIOD. I have heard this repeatedly and I don't buy it. They may have different concepts but Larry Johnson didn't tell Jom Knowles to drop two defensive linemen into coverage with the linebackers and safeties only to leave our CBs alone on islands with their fastest players.
We don't create pressure because Knowles has cooked up this scheme to prevent being burned deep. Well, guess what, we are getting burned deep. We were better than Oregon. They just exploited what they knew Jim Knowles was going to do. We effed up. We were out schemed. PERIOD.
"Where are you, you som' bitch?!
Undercoverbuck makes a good point (that also happened following an Oregon loss
I would be surprised to see any wholesale changes to the overall defensive scheme, but with the bye-week it does give them an opportunity to insert some new wrinkles and begin to move in a different direction!
"College football cannot be explained by science or religion, which is why it remains perfect." ~ Ramzy Nasrallah
In the last 5 big game L's we've taken, we have forced ZERO punts in the 4th quarter. None. That's insane for the talent we recruit.
Knowles making over $2 million a year for that kind of performance is maddening. When you can't get off the field on 3rd down, you lose games.
What's crazy is that Oregon actually left points out on the field. The missed FG and the muffed PAT snap.
But then, what if Lathan actually went the distance on that interception return on that muffed PAT snap? We didn't block well enough there. That would've been two points to make it 9-6. Just when you think these close losses don't get any more heartbreaking.
That might as well be a tabloid of reactionary opinions article. It is sort of the views of the angriest part of the fanbase and pumping those rumors and opinions. There is reason to be annoyed, but not sure what one would do. The scheme OSU is playing should be good in the pass. Is it the players, they are usually pretty good but you are not fixing that during the season. Not sure what you do there when your guys get beat.
There could be more variety in presentation for the fronts, but OSU has not done that for ages and you are not going to install a new defense mid season on the fly unless things are pretty bad. Losing to the 3rd rank team by one point on the road is not really a reason to throw everything out the window either. They were a play away from winning that or running away with it.
It is also true that Oregon played a good game. Their QB made some really good passes and the WRs made some good catches. OSU's defense should have played better with TFL and so on but if you are thinking they should have shut them down than folks are being silly.
Better watch out LGHL is going to be thrown in with the "omg another Dave Biddle" crowd. There's smoke in most of the beat writing circles that JK and LJ do not agree on scheme/philosophy and that because of recruiting LJ has won the battle so far.
You can see Day calling for the rushmen meaning, LJ isn't making that call, but neither is Jim. Hmm.. I wonder why?
Someone or someone’s bull headedness is hurting the team. And it pisses me off they can’t just do what’s best for the team.
Just imagine if Larry Johnson were held to the same standard that the board wants Justin Frye held to... ONE SACK in 5 games against Oregon and Michigan since 2021. ONE from his unit. He isn't getting it done and should be held accountable just like every other position coach is.
yes
vacuuming sucks
Based on what evidence?
We as fans will probably never know if there is actually a problem between JK and LJ. What I do know is the DL, outside of JT single handedly wrecking Penn St one game, hasn't gotten pressure on opposing QBs since 2019, when the talent is close to OSUs. This is another year of a talented roster wasted. I will assume the defense will continue to do exactly what they have done for 3 years until I see something change.
According to PFF, Gabriel was pressured on 40% of his dropbacks. Our scheme was pressuring him, even though it didn't result in sacks. It was essentially Burke who destroyed our chances at a win.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
This number is useless if you can never get home. They can measure it however you want but there were maybe 2-3 plays where Gabriel ever looked uncomfortable.
I don't know the exact definition of "pressured" that PFF uses. But a commonly cited metric is the performance of a QB under pressure vs not. It's possible Gabriel just had a great game under pressure because our DBs (Denzel Burkes) were having a bad game.
It's not useless at all because QBs are much worse under pressure overall compared to no pressure.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Zach Boren agrees with you. He said there were only two plays in the game he considered real pressures by the Buckeyes.
It always seems impossible until it’s done
Curry seems to be able to get to the qb better than the rest. Why not play the guys who gets home more often. I don`t see a Young or Bosa on this team and assume there isn`t one on the team or he would be playing. Go Bucks.
C. Brian Massie
I think it's too late to change the scheme, but not too late to change some players if need be.
I don’t think think there needs to be some whole sale change of scheme. It’s simply about executing better. I would also say to unleash the d line. Just from my observation they rushed very scared I assume because of Gabriel threat to run. Also 90% of the people on this site don’t even know what osu runs for defense. It may surprise people but we did actually run somewhat exotic blitzes to try and confuse Gabriel. The problem is that they were not excuted very well but never the less it was mixed in.
At what point would you change the scheme? Because Knowles can't get a stop in the second half of a top 5 game. So either the players are not good enough, or the scheme is not working. At this point, I think it is fair to say it is both until proven otherwise.
How firm thy friendship
Pressure forces the QB out of his comfort zone. You want ints. get pressure on the QB. Doesn't have to be a sack but make him hurry through his reads, it leads to mistakes.
fremontguy
So frustrating to watch, somehow they didn't get pressure but also weren't playing coverage behind not blitzing. Felt absurd to watch. QB was like 175lbs and required a hop step to throw deep ball and we didn't hit him once or even disrupt any timing.
Frighteningly, this was Knowles best BIG game performance so far at OSU (UGA and TUN games were all worse). I would have rather just let them score on one play on the last drive than drain five minutes off the clock. He is so poor at selecting when to be aggressive. I asked the question if he was actually good at his job pre-season and you all told me I was insane, yet here we are again. Haven't held a competent offense under 30 points in his tenure, no sacks in big games, one turnover created in big games.
In my mind it is time to move to a 3-3 Mint. It's just asking a lot for DE to get home when the ball is out so quickly. I think the 3-3 mint gives you a ton of flexibility on where to send pressure and keep the offense guessing. You could play a Jack on obvious running downs and a rover on obvious passing downs.
100000% agree! Even though this will never come close to real life, I can say on NCAA 25 running the 3-3-5 Mint defense can be lights out and get plenty of pressure on the QB on Blitzs if setup correctly.
Dave B.
Highly unlikely. Even if they do, Knowles will still run a cover zero blitz at the most inopportune time.
His fatal flaw is having no clue when to be conservative or aggressive. It's unreal how bad he is at it. Bad as Day managing the clock.
the team cant get to the QB with 4, also cant get to the QB if they send 6. their blitz concepts are horrible. so either the coaches arent coaching them properly, or they are allowing players to do it incorrectly. in the end, it has looked the same for 3 years under knowles. nothing is going to change.
We're going to see Michigan running backs running away from our D for 80 yard TD's again aren't we?
I don't like nice people. I like tough, honest people.
Woody Hayes
There is a literal galaxy between what Oregon and UM can do offensively. Are you that insecure?
Now i become Boob Salsa, grifter of men.
If there is hope that the defense won't be a liability down the stretch against good teams, then some changes better be on the horizon, because you show up at a neutral site to play Texas with that defense and you're cooked, you're giving up 50 points.
IDK what they can do schematically, do they overhaul the entire thing mid-season? Not sure you can do that, but if the DEs don't get some kind of a consistent pass rush going in these games there is no hope for a conference title, let alone a natty.
The Excellence of Execution, the Best there is, the Best there was, the Best there ever will be!
Change the scheme lmao! They’ve had three years to figure it and against equal talent, they get blown up. You have a defensive coordinator and defensive line coach that can’t seem to get on the same page and you have a head coach that doesn’t seem interested in fixing the problem.
Scheme...no way in hell. Even if they wanted to and started on Sunday morning, the chances of making significant scheme changes in a week (after three years getting to the one they had) are between slim and none...and both those left town.
At absolute best, they will decide to do more blitzing or a slightly different mix of existing coverages.
Scheme...no way in hell. Even if they wanted to and started on Sunday morning, the chances of making significant scheme changes in a week (after three years getting to the one they had) are between slim and none...and both those left town.
At absolute best, they will decide to do more blitzing or a slightly different mix of existing coverages.
At some point we just have to acknowledge that you are what you are. It's not an aberration, it's just a trend for at least 3 years or even longer. Our D-line does not get sacks. I don't know if it's the scheme or that they're not developed or that they're told to rush a certain way (to contain only), but they aren't getting sacks, which means they aren't getting big time pressure or turnovers. That means against bad or mid teams, you will consistently win because you force them to drive the entire field and they'll make a mistake along the way. Against teams of equal talent, they will torch you. That's why we can't beat a team with equal talent. And I don't think it's going to get fixed, it is what it is.