It's a moot point. The game is over. We lost. Blame goes both ways. We put ourselves in the position that victory depended on four seconds of game clock. And as far as the game clock and blame is concerned, why was there such poor time management in the final seconds to begin with ? Why did you let the clock run down while Howard was standing there ? The loss is on us. We own it.
You need excuses? There's a million 'one things' that could've been different, or poor performance by so and so at X point.
It was a good game overall, but understanding those one things is vital to not repeating them. Obviously no one here is on staff or the team, but I imagine we all want to know the goings on in the team and game.
It wouldn’t shock me if they intentionally ran another guy on. What’s infuriating is that the replay showed Day screaming at the ref that they had 12 guys on the field and then the play runs.
At the end of the day, just change the rule. In the last two minutes of the game, 12 men on the field gets a 15 yard penalty and restores any time lost. Takes away the incentive to use 12 men if there is one.
And then one day if a call like that hurts us, some fans would freak about the penalty being too harsh and it cost us the game and the penalty should be changed in the future.
We lost the game. There are no excuses to be made.
I really doubt their coaches were playing 4D chess. Much more likely that things were chaotic and they ran an extra DB out cuz they thought they needed him.
Has anyone got this thing recorded or know where to find one to watch for ourselves? The guy in Reddit sounded like it was obvious when watching the sideline in the runup. All I can find is a like 0.5 sec pre snap copy.
It looks intentional but rules don't punish them that much. NFL used to do this but changed it to a dead ball foul and maybe 15 yards so time doesn't run off.
I’ve posted in another thread but it’s reviewable by replay officials and the time should have been added to the pre snap timing in addition to the penalty because a flag was thrown. It’s under article 6 “miscellaneous” of the NCAA rule book.
OR it could have been a 15 yd penalty for illegal participation since it was purposely done. Either way, the refs and review official screwed it up.
I've seen someone say that the illegal participation penalty was removed in 2020. I certainly couldn't find anything in the 2024 NCAA rulebook about it.
In my opinion Illegal participation is a second violation of a sideline warning or when a coach enters the field of play after they’ve been warned. It’s 15 yards. I’ve never seen a penalty for first time offenders.
Not an excuse, but if the 12 man penalty occurs at the snap of the ball it just makes sense to then assess the penalty and reset the clock. Rules committee needs to rethink this one.
I don't know if Oregon intentionally did it or not, but it does beg the question.
In such a late game situation in which you can only really be beaten by a long play, what would happen if the defense suddenly put 20 dudes on the field? During the substitutions, run 1 guy off and run 10 dudes on. Can the referees throw a dead ball flag on that, or is that a penalty that occurs on the snap?
Why not sneak a 12 man on for the last play also at :06? Sounds shady. Should have reset the clock back to where it was. Will Howard could have run for a few more yards and could have tried the field goal. We make bad mistakes in big games but unfair things seem to happen also.
Because another 5 yds for OSU puts them in (long) FG position, and regardless of the amount of time the play took for OSU, there'd be an untimed down because of the penalty.
I don't know how the Ducks could have known that the zebras would not first blow the whistle and stop play before the snap. Not defending anyone here, because in any case it does seem that the mistake cost the Buckeyes precious seconds that may well have been enough to win the game.
No. I never said that. Was Jim Harbaugh coaching for the Ducks last night? If they actually put 12 men on there on purpose… it worked. Good for them. They were penalized… to their advantage. They certainly weren’t cheating. Ryan Day is becoming the equivalent of Jim Bollman 2.0. If it doesn’t work… keep doing it.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
I dont know..its possible that Oregon coaches are geniuses and playing 4D chess. But I also know that there's one team, with one coach who is consistently on the wrong end of these calls, penalties, bad breaks, etc. At a certain point, you just have to be better and produce when you have a chance to win with everything is on the line.
The Giants did this in the Super Bowl against the Pats..the NFL changed the rule, they now blow the play dead if the snap is imminent and penalize the 5 yards, just for this case.
Never saw a replay, but thought it might have been intentional and very smart. Eat up time, prevent any sort of a big play and know that even if you give up 5 yards, OSU wasn’t making a 55 yard FG.
One coach clearly understands the rules and one didn't and it cost us a shot at winning the game. He didn't know clock ran after the OPI and didn't understand what to do in this situation. Day needs to be a head coach, manage the clock, understand situational football, know when to go for two, have a trick up the sleeve in a big game etc. Thought he would be better at this stuff via not calling plays but he still blew it all in this game. He is not doing anything to help his team win these games and in most is a net negative.
Yep. Intentional and tactically brilliant, if not so ethical. As others have said, he exploited a rule gap to his team's benefit, and likely stole a win. It happens sometimes. You need a glaring example of something to make changes to a rule. It doesn't help the initial victim of that gap, but at least something good can come from it. I'm looking at you, Calvin Johnson Rule....
Oh yes, the Calvin Johnson rule. The "process" of catching a TD that never existed prior to the refs taking the TD away from CJ that one day in Chicago I believe... Then, all of a sudden all these new rules are created on what a TD is and isn't.
The penalty absolutely needs to be more severe. If I’m a coach, I would definitely used 12 players every play at the end of the game if the offense isn’t in FG range. Imagine there’s 20 seconds left and the ball is on your own 40. I’d use 12 players until the ball gets to the other 40. But I’d use the extra player at a pass rusher. I’d rush 6 and still have 6 in coverage.
People are mad at Lanning, I give him a ton of credit. No different than grabbing someone if you get burnt to save a TD. Or taking a delay of game to give your punter more room. But I do expect the rule to change. Illegal participation should be a 15 yard penalty.
My question is this though, imagine the ball got intercepted and the clock ran down to 1 second. Obviously the ball comes back to Ohio State but by the rule, they would have only had 1 second, correct?
Other intentional penalties are committed to benefit the penalized: delay of game to get more punt room, tackling receiver when beat, etc. Stallions cheating had impact beyond one play or one game. It was systemic, long term, denied, and covered up.
Lanning was caught, penalized in game per rule, and even came clean on intent.
Pv - There was once a boy that cried "wolf" . We are entering that fairy tale area of accusing opponents of cheating. We lost! Maybe our coaches will learn something from this loss that they didn't learn from our cupcake wins while making many of the same defensive mistakes in all our games this year. It's just that the cupcakes couldn't take advantage of our shortcomings. The score did not reflect the actual play on the field. O could have won by two touchdowns. That is not my opinion, the commentators noted that O left points on the field. So blame them for their opinion, not me!
Since I never read your post I guess I'm not accusing you of anything. Putting 12 men on the field so you can double cover our two best recievers and still have plenty of DB's is cheating. It's not cool, it's cheating.
It was intentional. Lanning basically said so in a recent interview. Rule obviously needs changed.
I'm convinced however after watching the replay a few times that the "onsides kick" was 100% unintentional. It looks like it struck off the side of his foot, rather than aiming it at the player and then also #83, who is lined up to the left of the kicker, does not seem to be initially moving towards the "target" until well after the ball hit him. It was a completely unintentional thing that worked perfectly in Oregon's favor because it was just that type of game all night.
Yahoo Sports’ Ross Dellenger reported Tuesday that the NCAA Rules Committee is considering taking in-season action to change how the penalty for putting an extra defender on the field is assessed after Oregon used the current rule to its advantage against Ohio State.
Steve Shaw, the secretary rules-editor of the NCAA Football Rules Committee, told Dellenger that the committee is “engaged” in examining the rule for possible action after Oregon intentionally sent a 12th defender onto the field on the second-to-last play of the game against Ohio State. The extra defender helped Oregon force an incomplete pass, and while the Ducks were issued a five-yard penalty, it ultimately worked in the Ducks’ favor as those five yards kept Ohio State out of field goal range while the play ran the clock down from 10 to six seconds. Oregon won the game on the next play when Will Howard slid too late for Ohio State to call a timeout; had the Buckeyes had another second or two on the clock, they would have been in position to kick a game-winning field goal.
We are extremely conservative with rules to the point that we hurt ourselves relative to competition. Probably an over-reaction to the Tress situation. We pre-emptively punish ourselves to appease NCAA and would never resort to something like this for fear of backlash. At least paying players is now in the open so we can remove that SEC advantage. And we certainly don't stoop to the cheating tactics of Michigan, although the silence of other big teams makes me wonder if they do it too.
It seems the talk of a mid-season rule change is dissipating. I never fell for it. That would put a giant asterisk on the game and therefore any conference or national title the Ducks might "win".
All that said, there are two camps when it comes to this. Those who think it's "genius" and those who think it's unsportsmanlike and lacks class. I fall into camp 2. To intentionally decide a game by manipulating rules means it's something you thought about doing - premeditated. I find that to be really questionable and classless, and while it's not "Cheating", per se, it sort of is. Speaks volumes about the type of person Lanning may actually be.
If a team's best player was calling for a fair catch, and the opposing team decided to annihilate his knees, technically, it would just be a penalty. A completely fair thing to do in the grand scheme. It didn't "break the rules", it just incurs a penalty. And it knocks the player out of the game, maybe the whole season. It's just a football play, after all. Something a coach could tell another player to do. Falls entirely within what is acceptable, and would alter a game completely.
Evidently the story about the rule change was posted here around the time I posted. Oh well. Maybe when the Ducks play TCUN they should call it the Asterisk Bowl.
Yea but it's not why we lost. There's 59:50 of game play to point to why we lost. Like the OPI, it's not why we lost but not happening probably helps us win.
Just a thought, Pat Forde said an Oregon staffer was upset after the game about having 12 men on the field, insinuating that either the staffer did not know about the plan or that it was on accident. I don't really like Forde, but that is interesting.
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It's a moot point. The game is over. We lost. Blame goes both ways. We put ourselves in the position that victory depended on four seconds of game clock. And as far as the game clock and blame is concerned, why was there such poor time management in the final seconds to begin with ? Why did you let the clock run down while Howard was standing there ? The loss is on us. We own it.
BubbaGumps
Solid explanation - we should just ignore things that happened in games. Who knew?!
You know it's optional whether or not to participate in these chats.
I guess it depends on whether the intent is genuine discussion or looking for excuses for a loss.
BubbaGumps
You need excuses? There's a million 'one things' that could've been different, or poor performance by so and so at X point.
It was a good game overall, but understanding those one things is vital to not repeating them. Obviously no one here is on staff or the team, but I imagine we all want to know the goings on in the team and game.
Good posts Bubbag honest discourse is hard for some to hear
Well sure beats the 10 man strategy employed by Freeman last year
Now i become Boob Salsa, grifter of men.
It wouldn’t shock me if they intentionally ran another guy on. What’s infuriating is that the replay showed Day screaming at the ref that they had 12 guys on the field and then the play runs.
At the end of the day, just change the rule. In the last two minutes of the game, 12 men on the field gets a 15 yard penalty and restores any time lost. Takes away the incentive to use 12 men if there is one.
And then one day if a call like that hurts us, some fans would freak about the penalty being too harsh and it cost us the game and the penalty should be changed in the future.
We lost the game. There are no excuses to be made.
BubbaGumps
Or maybe just make it 5 yards, auto first down and add 10 seconds to the clock whereas the offense is already dogged with runoffs for their flags.
I really doubt their coaches were playing 4D chess. Much more likely that things were chaotic and they ran an extra DB out cuz they thought they needed him.
It was after timeout. They started with 12 players and made no attempt to run a guy off. It was intentional
Lanning was playing 4D chess all night.
It was completely intentional.
Lanning's non-answer in his presser all but confirms it.
Has anyone got this thing recorded or know where to find one to watch for ourselves? The guy in Reddit sounded like it was obvious when watching the sideline in the runup. All I can find is a like 0.5 sec pre snap copy.
Well if the 12th man stays out there and plays the down it should be called illegal participation and be a 15 unsportsmanlike conduct penalty
DH7 was Special R.I.P Simba
Watching that again confirms his knee was down with 1 second left and players called timeout. Why this wasn't reviewed is beyond me.
It looks intentional but rules don't punish them that much. NFL used to do this but changed it to a dead ball foul and maybe 15 yards so time doesn't run off.
I’ve posted in another thread but it’s reviewable by replay officials and the time should have been added to the pre snap timing in addition to the penalty because a flag was thrown. It’s under article 6 “miscellaneous” of the NCAA rule book.
OR it could have been a 15 yd penalty for illegal participation since it was purposely done. Either way, the refs and review official screwed it up.
I've seen someone say that the illegal participation penalty was removed in 2020. I certainly couldn't find anything in the 2024 NCAA rulebook about it.
In my opinion Illegal participation is a second violation of a sideline warning or when a coach enters the field of play after they’ve been warned. It’s 15 yards. I’ve never seen a penalty for first time offenders.
It's unsportsmanlike conduct to intentionally violate the rule to gain an advantage.
"Make Helen Well"
It is a penalty the refs missed there are two illegal participation penalties put it in regular terms best i can after looking up rulebook
1. When a guy is running off and doesn’t make the sideline or is in the huddle to start 5 yards
2. when a guy stays on the field and participates in the play i.e. plays in the secondary in pass coverage 15 yards
Not an excuse, but if the 12 man penalty occurs at the snap of the ball it just makes sense to then assess the penalty and reset the clock. Rules committee needs to rethink this one.
Eaglebuck21
This has been my thoughts on it. It's a gap in the rules that Oregon exploited.
It's smart but at the same time I find it lacking in integrity and the rules should be changed
I don't know if Oregon intentionally did it or not, but it does beg the question.
In such a late game situation in which you can only really be beaten by a long play, what would happen if the defense suddenly put 20 dudes on the field? During the substitutions, run 1 guy off and run 10 dudes on. Can the referees throw a dead ball flag on that, or is that a penalty that occurs on the snap?
Seems like a loop hole somewhere needs closing.
Why not sneak a 12 man on for the last play also at :06? Sounds shady. Should have reset the clock back to where it was. Will Howard could have run for a few more yards and could have tried the field goal. We make bad mistakes in big games but unfair things seem to happen also.
Banks of olentangy
Because another 5 yds for OSU puts them in (long) FG position, and regardless of the amount of time the play took for OSU, there'd be an untimed down because of the penalty.
I don't know how the Ducks could have known that the zebras would not first blow the whistle and stop play before the snap. Not defending anyone here, because in any case it does seem that the mistake cost the Buckeyes precious seconds that may well have been enough to win the game.
Maybe they just decided it was worth the risk.
Lanning is a gambler and it just because he does something doesn't mean it was smart. I think he got lucky on this play and on the "on-side" kickoff.
Ryan Groundhog Day would never think of something so scheming and diabolically sound. The game has passed him by, sadly, in so many ways.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
So you’re saying the game has passed Day by because he’s not Jim Harbaugh and cheats?
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
No. I never said that. Was Jim Harbaugh coaching for the Ducks last night? If they actually put 12 men on there on purpose… it worked. Good for them. They were penalized… to their advantage. They certainly weren’t cheating. Ryan Day is becoming the equivalent of Jim Bollman 2.0. If it doesn’t work… keep doing it.
"When I look in the mirror, I want to take a swing at me."
Wayne Woodrow Hayes
I dont know..its possible that Oregon coaches are geniuses and playing 4D chess. But I also know that there's one team, with one coach who is consistently on the wrong end of these calls, penalties, bad breaks, etc. At a certain point, you just have to be better and produce when you have a chance to win with everything is on the line.
We can't stop here; this is bat country...
They really should just fire all the coaches and hire you. Only you though. You have all the answers.
The Giants did this in the Super Bowl against the Pats..the NFL changed the rule, they now blow the play dead if the snap is imminent and penalize the 5 yards, just for this case.
This rule 100% needs changed. How can a defensive penalty use time off the clock....
Never saw a replay, but thought it might have been intentional and very smart. Eat up time, prevent any sort of a big play and know that even if you give up 5 yards, OSU wasn’t making a 55 yard FG.
One coach clearly understands the rules and one didn't and it cost us a shot at winning the game. He didn't know clock ran after the OPI and didn't understand what to do in this situation. Day needs to be a head coach, manage the clock, understand situational football, know when to go for two, have a trick up the sleeve in a big game etc. Thought he would be better at this stuff via not calling plays but he still blew it all in this game. He is not doing anything to help his team win these games and in most is a net negative.
Lanning confirmed this morning on ESPN that it was indeed intentional.
Yep. Intentional and tactically brilliant, if not so ethical. As others have said, he exploited a rule gap to his team's benefit, and likely stole a win. It happens sometimes. You need a glaring example of something to make changes to a rule. It doesn't help the initial victim of that gap, but at least something good can come from it. I'm looking at you, Calvin Johnson Rule....
Oh yes, the Calvin Johnson rule. The "process" of catching a TD that never existed prior to the refs taking the TD away from CJ that one day in Chicago I believe... Then, all of a sudden all these new rules are created on what a TD is and isn't.
I died somewhat that day....
The penalty absolutely needs to be more severe. If I’m a coach, I would definitely used 12 players every play at the end of the game if the offense isn’t in FG range. Imagine there’s 20 seconds left and the ball is on your own 40. I’d use 12 players until the ball gets to the other 40. But I’d use the extra player at a pass rusher. I’d rush 6 and still have 6 in coverage.
People are mad at Lanning, I give him a ton of credit. No different than grabbing someone if you get burnt to save a TD. Or taking a delay of game to give your punter more room. But I do expect the rule to change. Illegal participation should be a 15 yard penalty.
Jesus Won
He outsmarted Day, which isn't that hard to do honestly. We've seen him get outplayed time and time again.
How did he outsmart anyone, outside of the incompetent officiating crew?
How was Coach Day supposed to prevent the other team from putting 12 guys out there? What should he have done?
Why stop at 12 players? I'd put in an extra Dlineman and DB, just to make it harder for the offense to have a successful play.
Hell ! Let’s load it up with 20 dudes all trying to kill the qb. It’s only a 5 yard penalty.
My question is this though, imagine the ball got intercepted and the clock ran down to 1 second. Obviously the ball comes back to Ohio State but by the rule, they would have only had 1 second, correct?
Jesus Won
Looks like it was deliberate: https://sports.yahoo.com/too-many-men-no-2-034248200.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=ma
The rule needs to be changed to have defensive penalties within the last 2 minutes reset the clock.
Why is the National media, or the Big10 or the NCAA not screaming about Oregon's Cheating? Wonder what would have happened if Ryan Day did that?
fremontguy
Because they didn't cheat?
How is this cheating? It was legal what he did. He gamed the system to his advantage. That ain't cheating.
I guess putting 12 players on the field is not cheating to you, it is to me. Is that a Conner Stallions hat?
fremontguy
Other intentional penalties are committed to benefit the penalized: delay of game to get more punt room, tackling receiver when beat, etc. Stallions cheating had impact beyond one play or one game. It was systemic, long term, denied, and covered up.
Lanning was caught, penalized in game per rule, and even came clean on intent.
Buckeyes Rule!
Well then I guess the Rules Committee took action just for the hell of it? Must have been a slow news day.
Pv - There was once a boy that cried "wolf" . We are entering that fairy tale area of accusing opponents of cheating. We lost! Maybe our coaches will learn something from this loss that they didn't learn from our cupcake wins while making many of the same defensive mistakes in all our games this year. It's just that the cupcakes couldn't take advantage of our shortcomings. The score did not reflect the actual play on the field. O could have won by two touchdowns. That is not my opinion, the commentators noted that O left points on the field. So blame them for their opinion, not me!
I love the game!
Since I never read your post I guess I'm not accusing you of anything. Putting 12 men on the field so you can double cover our two best recievers and still have plenty of DB's is cheating. It's not cool, it's cheating.
fremontguy
It was intentional. Lanning basically said so in a recent interview. Rule obviously needs changed.
I'm convinced however after watching the replay a few times that the "onsides kick" was 100% unintentional. It looks like it struck off the side of his foot, rather than aiming it at the player and then also #83, who is lined up to the left of the kicker, does not seem to be initially moving towards the "target" until well after the ball hit him. It was a completely unintentional thing that worked perfectly in Oregon's favor because it was just that type of game all night.
Lanning is a mensa level coach compared to Day.
It was intentional- story on front page:
We are extremely conservative with rules to the point that we hurt ourselves relative to competition. Probably an over-reaction to the Tress situation. We pre-emptively punish ourselves to appease NCAA and would never resort to something like this for fear of backlash. At least paying players is now in the open so we can remove that SEC advantage. And we certainly don't stoop to the cheating tactics of Michigan, although the silence of other big teams makes me wonder if they do it too.
Buckeyes Rule!
It seems the talk of a mid-season rule change is dissipating. I never fell for it. That would put a giant asterisk on the game and therefore any conference or national title the Ducks might "win".
Already done
Those who stir the shit pot should have to lick the spoon.
You should have fell for it
Yep. I'm glad they did tho.
The midseason change happened.
All that said, there are two camps when it comes to this. Those who think it's "genius" and those who think it's unsportsmanlike and lacks class. I fall into camp 2. To intentionally decide a game by manipulating rules means it's something you thought about doing - premeditated. I find that to be really questionable and classless, and while it's not "Cheating", per se, it sort of is. Speaks volumes about the type of person Lanning may actually be.
If a team's best player was calling for a fair catch, and the opposing team decided to annihilate his knees, technically, it would just be a penalty. A completely fair thing to do in the grand scheme. It didn't "break the rules", it just incurs a penalty. And it knocks the player out of the game, maybe the whole season. It's just a football play, after all. Something a coach could tell another player to do. Falls entirely within what is acceptable, and would alter a game completely.
I don't see much difference.
--
OSU will win title this year - Dr R, 10/13/24
Evidently the story about the rule change was posted here around the time I posted. Oh well. Maybe when the Ducks play TCUN they should call it the Asterisk Bowl.
It’s been changed, mid season. We are screwed once more
Those who stir the shit pot should have to lick the spoon.
It’s not why we lost
--
OSU will win title this year - Dr R, 10/13/24
Without playing it out, without the 12th man being used and the penalty called, we will never know the outcome.
Yea but it's not why we lost. There's 59:50 of game play to point to why we lost. Like the OPI, it's not why we lost but not happening probably helps us win.
Now i become Boob Salsa, grifter of men.
"I've been playing checkers."
And I have been concerned for quite some time about the decline of ethics in this society. Evidently it's worse than I thought.
Just a thought, Pat Forde said an Oregon staffer was upset after the game about having 12 men on the field, insinuating that either the staffer did not know about the plan or that it was on accident. I don't really like Forde, but that is interesting.
Around the 47 minute mark.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/midseason-college-football-playoff...
If you take everything I’ve accomplished in my life and condense it down to one day, it looks decent!