Only if it's a pre-snap penalty where the play continues, like 12 men or offsides. Having a ticky-tack defensive penalty like pass interference not only give the offense 15 yards, but also add time back to the clock, will only create more problems than solutions.
You are only adding 5 to 7 seconds back to the clock for a play that technically did not occur once the offense accepts the penalty. It would not create a bunch of additional issues.
I disagree. There are no mid-play defensive penalties that are less than 10 yards in length. All 5-yard penalties are pre-play infractions (offsides, 12 men, etc.). If the defense commits a 10- or 15-yard penalty, it's not going to be intentional. On top of that, there's the issue of the refs potentially gifting penalty after penalty to the offense to not only get them farther down the field, but not waste any time. We've seen how biased officiating can be. Look no further than how biased ACC crews are towards Miami. That would not be protecting the integrity of the game, it would only hamper it even further.
Again, I agree with you that the clock should reset to what it was on a pre-snap penalty, ala what happened on Saturday. But a questionable pass interference, defensive holding, facemask, horse-collar tackle, roughing the passer, etc. where the offense is given 10-15 yards tacked on to the end of the play, and has the clock reset, is simply too huge of an advantage for the offense.
Again, I agree with you that the clock should reset to what it was on a pre-snap penalty, ala what happened on Saturday.
I'm not a rules wonk, but isn't the time when the 12 man penalty is determined is the moment the ball is snapped? I seem to recall that 12 man penalties have occurred unintentionally when a substituted player doesn't make it off the field in time.
Also, a good number of PI penalties ARE intentional (i.e. when the defender is getting beat). The situation on Saturday (10 seconds left) could have involved an intentional PI vs intentional 12 man if the ball were a little farther from the end zone such that a 15 yard max PI penalty would still put the offense out of field goal range with 6 seconds left.
I have always thought that defensive penalties with seconds left were unfair from the standpoint that the offense loses the seconds during the penalty play - in other words the defense can benefit from their own penalty.
This scenario has happened. A team is 20 yards out of fieldgoal range. Ten seconds left. The defensive back holds the best wide receiver on the line of scrimmage. The defense is rewarded for a penalty.
11 seconds, 25 yards out of field goal range. A defensive back is beaten 27 yards downfield and commits pass interference on purpose ( or unintentionally).
The defense benefits by a penalty.
They'll give the refs a raise and send them to the next game is how they'll address it. You all seen that commercial where that ref blows a call and fans cuss him out and then throw stuff at his car while he's leaving and then he goes home alone and all depressed with only his dog that loves him? That's a good commercial. Unrealistic (Refs don't care if they fuck up) but good.
Everyone is really overthinking this situation. The solution for what Oregon did is very simple. 12 men in formation is a presnap dead ball penalty. That 100% solves the issue.
It would have to be a retroactive dead ball penalty since the penalty is determined at the time the ball is snapped - but they could make such a rule that provides no time elapses on such a penalty - I assume the play would be called dead at the moment of the snap.
Not sure I'd want it to be a presnap penalty since a player running off the field could still cause the penalty after the ball is snapped and blowing the play dead on a defensive penalty potentially negates a positive offensive outcome such as a first down or TD. Let the play run, call the penalty and if accepted reset the clock and add the 5 yards.
They fixed the kickoff loophole where a kicking team could run out the clock with deliberate offsides.
As much as I don't like what happened, coaches use the rules to gain an advantage allowed by the rules.
Sometimes you have to admire the creativity to get an edge while staying in the rules; Henry 'Smokey' Yunick was a master at it.
As we used to say in the submarine force, "If it wasn't expressly forbidden it was allowed."
My last words will probably be: "It seemed like a good Idea at the time..."
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Steven Hawking
Can we also get refs to realize if something wasn't called earlier in a game and they've been 'letting the teams play' that they shouldn't all of a sudden decide something deserves a flag at the end of a game...
A defensive penalty in the last 2 minutes of the half should be up to the offensive team to be able to accept or decline the penalty, and be able to either put the time back on the clock or allow the time that was used during the play to stand.
So as the rule stands as of Saturday night, would the game have just been "over" if there were 4 or less seconds on the clock? Or would they have played 1 untimed down to end the game?
The Ohio State University - "Haters love us!"
Baskins and Robbins? Nah, Haskins and Dobbins - KannonMic
Show All Comments
I like giving the offense the option. Can’t game the clock either way if you leave it to the offense.
Only if it's a pre-snap penalty where the play continues, like 12 men or offsides. Having a ticky-tack defensive penalty like pass interference not only give the offense 15 yards, but also add time back to the clock, will only create more problems than solutions.
R.I.P. Simba
You are only adding 5 to 7 seconds back to the clock for a play that technically did not occur once the offense accepts the penalty. It would not create a bunch of additional issues.
I disagree. There are no mid-play defensive penalties that are less than 10 yards in length. All 5-yard penalties are pre-play infractions (offsides, 12 men, etc.). If the defense commits a 10- or 15-yard penalty, it's not going to be intentional. On top of that, there's the issue of the refs potentially gifting penalty after penalty to the offense to not only get them farther down the field, but not waste any time. We've seen how biased officiating can be. Look no further than how biased ACC crews are towards Miami. That would not be protecting the integrity of the game, it would only hamper it even further.
Again, I agree with you that the clock should reset to what it was on a pre-snap penalty, ala what happened on Saturday. But a questionable pass interference, defensive holding, facemask, horse-collar tackle, roughing the passer, etc. where the offense is given 10-15 yards tacked on to the end of the play, and has the clock reset, is simply too huge of an advantage for the offense.
R.I.P. Simba
I'm not a rules wonk, but isn't the time when the 12 man penalty is determined is the moment the ball is snapped? I seem to recall that 12 man penalties have occurred unintentionally when a substituted player doesn't make it off the field in time.
Also, a good number of PI penalties ARE intentional (i.e. when the defender is getting beat). The situation on Saturday (10 seconds left) could have involved an intentional PI vs intentional 12 man if the ball were a little farther from the end zone such that a 15 yard max PI penalty would still put the offense out of field goal range with 6 seconds left.
I have always thought that defensive penalties with seconds left were unfair from the standpoint that the offense loses the seconds during the penalty play - in other words the defense can benefit from their own penalty.
This scenario has happened. A team is 20 yards out of fieldgoal range. Ten seconds left. The defensive back holds the best wide receiver on the line of scrimmage. The defense is rewarded for a penalty.
11 seconds, 25 yards out of field goal range. A defensive back is beaten 27 yards downfield and commits pass interference on purpose ( or unintentionally).
The defense benefits by a penalty.
They'll give the refs a raise and send them to the next game is how they'll address it. You all seen that commercial where that ref blows a call and fans cuss him out and then throw stuff at his car while he's leaving and then he goes home alone and all depressed with only his dog that loves him? That's a good commercial. Unrealistic (Refs don't care if they fuck up) but good.
Everyone is really overthinking this situation. The solution for what Oregon did is very simple. 12 men in formation is a presnap dead ball penalty. That 100% solves the issue.
It would have to be a retroactive dead ball penalty since the penalty is determined at the time the ball is snapped - but they could make such a rule that provides no time elapses on such a penalty - I assume the play would be called dead at the moment of the snap.
This is basically the NFL rule
Not sure I'd want it to be a presnap penalty since a player running off the field could still cause the penalty after the ball is snapped and blowing the play dead on a defensive penalty potentially negates a positive offensive outcome such as a first down or TD. Let the play run, call the penalty and if accepted reset the clock and add the 5 yards.
They fixed the kickoff loophole where a kicking team could run out the clock with deliberate offsides.
As much as I don't like what happened, coaches use the rules to gain an advantage allowed by the rules.
Sometimes you have to admire the creativity to get an edge while staying in the rules; Henry 'Smokey' Yunick was a master at it.
As we used to say in the submarine force, "If it wasn't expressly forbidden it was allowed."
My last words will probably be: "It seemed like a good Idea at the time..."
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Steven Hawking
Can we also get refs to realize if something wasn't called earlier in a game and they've been 'letting the teams play' that they shouldn't all of a sudden decide something deserves a flag at the end of a game...
A defensive penalty in the last 2 minutes of the half should be up to the offensive team to be able to accept or decline the penalty, and be able to either put the time back on the clock or allow the time that was used during the play to stand.
So as the rule stands as of Saturday night, would the game have just been "over" if there were 4 or less seconds on the clock? Or would they have played 1 untimed down to end the game?
The Ohio State University - "Haters love us!"
Baskins and Robbins? Nah, Haskins and Dobbins - KannonMic
Cannot end on a defensive penalty
They would have one untimed down.
They announced the loophole is closed. A 12 man penalty will result in the play clock being reset.
Why does it always seem to me that we always get fucked?
klusewski